Discovery in the Jungle

[Last Moon]

Recently this news item showed up in my feeds: Lost City Discovered in the Honduran Rain Forest

I found it interesting for a couple of reasons.

First, like many ruins in the area, there is the presence of a large number of were-jaguar related artifacts. I have hypothesized at some length about the significance of such finds. Were they signs that the humans were in some kind of conflict with the were-jaguars? Had they been enslaved ad forced t be the servants of the creatures? Was there some clue to the origin of the therianthropes to be had here?

Second, that this city has been, at least tentatively, identified with the Monkey God adds another potential layer of therianthrope tie in. Legends of monkeys or apes with human characteristics often have significant overlap with legends about therianthropes, up to some of these primates being able to take on human forms.

Is it possible that there may be evidence in the Honduran jungle of a civilization composed in whole or in part of therianthropes?

If such a civilization did exist, what happened to it? I find it hard to believe that a pre-Columbian human civilization would be able to overcome a nation of therianthropes. The Conquistadors had many strange tales, but nothing that would correspond with a city-state composed of or led by therianthropes. So any such civilization would have succumbed before the arrival of the Europeans.

Perhaps it was something internal. My research indicates that while modern therianthropes are good at using human innovations, they seem to have difficulty creating their own. if this civilization was based upon a model of a human society, then perhaps the therianthropes lacked the necessary knowledge to sustain and advance it. The predatory nature of some of these creatures (i.e. jaguars) must have made it difficult for co-operation with potential prey species (i.e. monkeys). It is not unfathomable to think that such tendencies could have resulted in civil strife on a scale that resulted in the collapse of the community.

It may be quite some time before we find the answer to these questions, if ever. However, I do find it interesting that, according to the article, the expedition included one or more members of the British SAS. That archaeologists would feel the need to have such deadly individuals along on this trek may tell us far more about the nature of the discovery than anything else.

[Cybermancer]

I do feel compelled to point out a couple errors in logic.

Besides being apes rather than monkeys, we are a predatory species every bit as much as any jaguar. Only our hunting techniques differ. Yet we manage to get along not only with other predatory animals (dogs, cats) but also prey animals (horses). While we are generally seen as senior in those relationships, most dog handlers and horsemen who work with these animals know that the best relationship is that of partnership.

What is perhaps more amazing than humanities ability to work with these animals is their ability to work with us. So much more so when the relationship is that of partners than master and servant. Conflict only usually arises when one attempts to dominate another. For example when a human beats a dog or when tigers stalk humans.

As for these lost cities, I tend to think it would be better to let the jungle reclaim the land than for civilization to creep any further. It's proving quite destructive in that part of the world as is. Given the politics of the region and how volatile the locals are, I'm not surprised the expedition took protection.

If hypothetically there was a civilization of were-jaguars in the region, it's worth considering that while they are part solitary cat, they are also part social human. That could lead to a society that prized individual rights as well as the collective good. It might also have led to cooperation with local human tribes and civilizations. While I can't discount the possibility of conflict, I can't ignore the possibility of cooperation either.

Just because these cities are no longer inhabited, doesn't mean they failed from internal reasons. There are many factors to consider from environmental to war with other civilizations. Furthermore we only know that the cities themselves failed. The culture that created them may have simply evolved in a different direction and abandoned them.

Another thought is that if your assumption that this was a Jaguar culture based on on a human model and they (the jaguars) could not sustain it on their own, then it is also possible that it was a cooperative human and jaguar nation that receded into the jungle when the human half of the cooperative failed (for any number of reasons). The jaguars may have survived this fall but were unable or unwilling to maintain the trappings of human civilization without their human partners.

If that hypothetical scenario were true, I wonder if said jaguars would feel guilt at not being able to protect their human partners and what the manifestation of that guilt might be?

Anyway, just a bit of a thought experiment on my part.

[Last Moon]

I didn't rule out the presence of humans within this society, only stipulated that the therianthropes would be dominant based on their capabilities and the existing evidence of cultures in the area worshiping therianthrope like beings.

There is a predatory history within humanity, sure, however it is as group hunters, which is one of the reasons we are such social creatures. The jaguar wouldn't have that. Further, the jaguar would see the primate members of the society as a natural prey whereas the human members would likely have worshipped them based on the available evidence.

We aren't talking felis domesticus here. We are talking about a lone hunter capable of easily taking any and all other prey in the environment, including hairless ground apes. It also regularly and ruthlessly destroys competing predators like caymans and anacondas. Everything it encounters other than fellow jaguars is a potential target for elimination.

Then, take that and add to it the supernatural abilities therianthrope possess, especially their almost total invulnerability to the weaponry of man and you wind up with a creature that views men as a food source and has no reason to fear retaliation from them.

Human societies based around far lesser power dichotomies typically collapse, usually In violent internal struggles. I see no reason why the added presures of throwing supernatural predators in the mix wouldn't all but garuntee the eventual collapse.

[Cybermancer]

Again your logic fails. It fails because you don't recognize the human side of the equation. Their human side.

Your assumption that the presence of supernatural creatures within a society would hasten it's collapse is entirely unfounded. If anything it would provide a stabilizing influence and provide a measure of protection to the populace.

Your assumption that the humans would be defenseless is also quite flawed. Aside from weight of numbers and silver weapons humans show proficiency with both magical and psychic powers. So called primitive peoples more so than modern humans. Then there are those who are occasionally born with exceptional gifts that allow them to battle all forms of the supernatural.

Ancient peoples were not stupid. They were not naive. What's more they recognized the supernatural for what it was and were more than prepared to deal with it.

Maybe were-jaguars were present and maybe they were revered or even worshiped but it would be a huge disservice to suggest that the humans would be in any way helpless before them. If anything the population has grown more, not less helpless.

If your assumptions were correct then there would have been no surviving human populations in that area when the Europeans arrived. The Jaguars, based on your assumptions, would have wiped them out long ago. Therefore there would have to be other factors involved that would allow for relatively peaceful co-existence prior to European arrival and also other factors causing any alleged Jaguar cities to fall.

[Last Moon]

I am unsure what logic results in a portion of the population openly preying upon the remainder of the population with impunity be a stabilizing influence. Human history tends to show the violent overthrow of the parasitic caste is the norm rather than the exception.

I also didn't indicate that there was only one group of therianthropes in the equation. A Monkey God is a part of this tale as well, implying that there may be another supernatural being or beings involved.

[Cybermancer]

I am not the one who has made any claims about one portion of the population preying on the other. That is your assumption and argument.

I've already pointed out that if one portion of the population was openly preying on the other as you surmise, there would have been no humans there when the Europeans arrived. It doesn't take a very large population of super predators to wipe out a much larger herd of defenseless prey.

More Therianthropes in the area makes human survival even less likely based on your assumptions of human helplessness and therian predation. Since humans did survive in the area, another hypothesis should be considered.

[Last Moon]

Predation, even that by super predators, rarely causes the extinction of a species. Instead a level of equilibrium is reached where the ratio of predatos to prey allows both to survive.

Before you point to the example of anthropogenic extinctions, the effects of human hunting cannot be looked at in isolation from the effects of human settlement and agriculture. Indeed, even primitive human cultures have radically altered their environment by clearing habitats.

If these therianthropes are as human as you think, then perhaps they practiced a form of conservation similar to that practiced by many groups of modern hunters, controlling the number of prey they take to prevent running out of prey or experiencing overpopulation.

[vulcan]

Disease?

[Cybermancer]

Cities have always been vulnerable to disease and there are other cases of de-urbanization being caused by disease.

In the case of a hypothetical were-jaguar civilization in the jungle, it would have to be dependent on the human population for disease wipe it out.

[Cybermancer]

Predation, even that by super predators, rarely causes the extinction of a species. Instead a level of equilibrium is reached where the ratio of predatos to prey allows both to survive.

Before you point to the example of anthropogenic extinctions, the effects of human hunting cannot be looked at in isolation from the effects of human settlement and agriculture. Indeed, even primitive human cultures have radically altered their environment by clearing habitats.

If these therianthropes are as human as you think, then perhaps they practiced a form of conservation similar to that practiced by many groups of modern hunters, controlling the number of prey they take to prevent running out of prey or experiencing overpopulation.

These aren't just hyper predators, they are literally super predators. And in nature, equilibrium is not always a given.

As for conservation hunting, that is a relatively new practice that is an outgrowth of our society and culture. It certainly isn't universally practiced as we deal with poachers all around the world. Species still creep closer to extinction because when a predator with overwhelming advantages hunts, it's wipes out prey animals that can't adapt. Extinctions due to predation also happen without human intervention.

The exception is the domestication of animals. This is certainly a possibility in the case of a hypothetical were-jaguar society but seems unlikely. Humans are not easy to domesticate as they often run away or fight back whenever they can. And again, ancient humans were not helpless against the supernatural, quite the contrary.

At least now you're starting to attribute human traits to the were-jaguars. That's important because human traits are required to being part of a recognizably human urban civilization. You're also starting to recognize the possibility that were-jaguars could potentially control their instinct to hunt which would be essential for a cooperative society.

Now, if I grant that some form of 'human domestication' did indeed take place, that brings me back to my points about cooperation and partnership with animals such as dogs and horses. Even as junior partners, they are still partners with humans. It is hypothetically possible that was switched in this case and humans were the jr. partners in a relationship with were-jaguars. It is also possible they were much more equal. It is even possible that given magical and psychic powers plus an instinctive nature to form complex social bonds they were the senior partners.

Perhaps the were-jaguars weren't part of the urban environment at all and were simply highly revered. They may have been seen as powerful allies against other dangers or simply respected for their hunting prowess. And indeed, they seem to be revered, not feared.

Evidence at this point is too scant to draw any definite conclusions about this situation. I do think it is a mistake when considering Therians to forget that they are influenced just as much by their human natures as by animal natures. It is also a mistake to underestimate ancient peoples who were just as smart and capable as we are. When it comes to recognizing and successfully dealing with the supernatural, they were much better informed and experienced than us.

[vulcan]

Why would have to be dependent on the human population for disease wipe it out?

Poaching might be a bad example. It is done for monetary gain. If there were no money in it, there would be practically none of it.

There is reason underneath most ways you want to look at it. There is reason why they could co-exist, they could be competitors, and so on. Frankly speaking, all hypothesis should be considered (which is a notion you seem to be warming up to).

Perhaps the were-jaguars weren't part of the urban environment at all and were simply highly revered.

That's where my money is.

It is also a mistake to underestimate ancient peoples who were just as smart and capable as we are. When it comes to recognizing and successfully dealing with the supernatural, they were much better informed and experienced than us.

They had a different understanding of and relationship with nature which required them to use the supernatural to explain the natural, even normal mundane things they could not otherwise explain. It does not follow from this that they were better informed and experienced. They may have just had more active imaginations.

[Last Moon]

I can't recall an extinction purely due to predation without climate change, habitat destruction or the introduction of alien fauna into an ecosystem through anthropogenic vectors.

Conservation as a conscious effort is a relatively new development among humans, but it remarkably resembles the natural result of predation in which predators only take a limited number of prey and will rest between hunts. Were lions or hyenas to hunt ceaselessly rather than taking only what they need to survive (and sometimes less than that) the African continent would be mostly devoid of large mammals.

Even the most prolific of documented man killing animals in history tend to take only one at a time, over several months years. As some of these may have actually been therianthrope attacks, I don't think there is reason to believe that therianthrpes would take more prey than that, thus mirroring the controlled pace at which most natural predators take game.

So, unless something created an extreme imbalance in the ratio of therianthropes to humans in the area, I don't think we'd see the therianthropes exterminating the human population solely by predation.

[Hannah]

Vulcan, given what we so far know about were-jaguar physiology, it would have to be one heck of a disease to have an impact.

Last Moon, are you aware that jaguars have some of the lowest rates for lethal attacks on humans of all the big cats? Lions and tigers each kill hundreds a year worldwide, but it may be years between reports of a lethal jaguar attack on a human. Despite their predatory nature, jaguars may not view humans as suitible prey. Possibly this hold even more true with were-jaguars who have the capability to relate to humans on intellectual and empathic levels.

HK.

[vulcan]

Vulcan, given what we so far know about were-jaguar physiology, it would have to be one heck of a disease to have an impact.

Yep. Perhaps not even an abiogenic one.

[Ron Caliburn]

I don't think predator and prey could last together in the same city openly for an extended period without the prey learning ways to defend themselves and, eventually, to turn the tables.

So I can easily see the humans getting sick of being lower in the food chain and taking steps to adjust the social order.

We know that the natives of Mexico were skilled metal workers, even if they had not discovered iron yet. The Spanish took a lot of silver out of the region in a very short period of time, implying it had already been extracted. I thin that if there were as many were-jaguars around as the prevalence of artifacts suggest, the natives must of made use of silver to protect themselves.

[Hannah]

Why can't we just go with the idea of a peaceful (if not necissarily harmonious) coexistence?

HK.

[vulcan]

Why can't we just go with the idea of a peaceful (if not necissarily harmonious) coexistence?

HK.

I can. Although I'd bet that the fangs and pitchforks occasionally organized hunting parties.

[Gotham Witch]

Copperworking shows up very early in one form or another in the New World. The Andeans at the time of contact were superior silver and gold metal workers than their European counterparts, and likely the source of where the Mesoamericans got it from. So far they've never found evidence of melting, smelting, or casting. I've often wondered if they ever felt the need to figure out silver weaponry...

There was a lot of discussion in Mayan Archaeology about the role of city centers, and whether they were true city centers or ceremonial in nature. They eventually settled on the notion that they were dispersed urban layouts, where ceremonial courts were interspersed with residential and agricultural spaces. I'm curious if this city follows a similar plan, or shares much in common at all with cities of the Maya homeland (which would include western Honduras)

I hope the site doesn't get looted. I'm curious to see what it turns up.

[Kermode]

My people, who presumably have some distant relation to those that once lived in that city, have many legends of beings who seem both animal and man. Our shamans spoke with the animals and the animals would speak to our heroes.

I doubt that all these tales came as a result of an improper does of peyote. There must have been something, or someone, that the ancestors encountered. Something that while not always friendly, was willing to co-operate for mutual benefit.

So why not a city built on such co-operation?

[Nemesis]

Humans at least, seem able cooperate with other species in order to survive and prosper. Once upon a time ago, wolves and felines did as well. I've witnessed cooperation on an individual level so the question is, does this proof of concept become scalable to larger populations?

[Kermode]

Based on the stories I've heard, I'm going to go with a yes.

[Last Moon]

The literature and the mythology repeatedly points to humans foolhardy enough to work with therians almost inevitably coming to a grisly end or suffering the curse of therianothropy themselves.

[Nemesis]

Sometimes it takes a little work to separate the truth from the propaganda. The problem with mythology is that it is often used to teach morals. And these morals are often left behind as outdated as society progresses past the uninformed beliefs of the past.

[Kermode]

The literature and the mythology repeatedly points to humans foolhardy enough to work with therians almost inevitably coming to a grisly end or suffering the curse of therianothropy themselves.

People do some pretty messed up things to each other, to be sure. Don't need fur and fangs for it either.

[Nemesis]

The literature and the mythology repeatedly points to humans foolhardy enough to work with therians almost inevitably coming to a grisly end or suffering the curse of therianothropy themselves.

People do some pretty messed up things to each other, to be sure. Don't need fur and fangs for it either.

The fangs and the fur do make them easier to hate for being different. Though to be fair, it also makes them that more dangerous.