Need to place an order

[Logan]

From a reputable smith, with a machine shop I would like to requisition a custom handgun. Automatic, chambered in .577 6 round doublestack magazine, with an action similar to the H&K USP line if you can. For the barell I would like a 6 inch barell, with the 2 inch threaded extention, I prefer for the inside of the barell have a teflon coat over the rifleing, in order to both reduce friction, and improve ease of cleaning. Sights set up with tritium dot night sights, adjustable front and rear. Must be able to support over and under barell support options.


Anyone got the equipment to make me a prototype with the possibility of a limited run (5 to 20) of them if the first is reliable and accurate enough?
(permit and liscence numbers available for verification.)

[Ron Caliburn]

Don't think it can be done USP style. Maybe a gas system like a DE, but that's going to be a litlte trickier.


So . . . you got hands like Shaq or what?

[Logan]

Well, lets just say that at 6'8 and 295 lbs I have beeen asked what futball team I play for.

The recoil would be a bit stiff, but I am checking out an articualated brace an associate came up with, same fellow that has designed most of the titanium rods, pins and plates that i have scattered through my body. Recoil hasn't bothered be since '98 when my first run in with a a dybukk resulted in a painful beating administered with the lower half of my right arm. (Intell was bad, it was just suppossed to be one of the child-snatcher bums that infest some cities)


As for the action, the main reason I like HK's actions is that they are quiet smooth and reliable, all to a much higher degree than the competitors. If you cannot manage the action I suppose a gas blowback will work, as long as the weapon is still smooth, reliable, and nearly silent when you chamber the 1st round.

[Ron Caliburn]

Yeah . . .

Your better off with a revolver in this case - about the only way a handgun can be made reliable for it. Most gas handguns are suceptible to fouling. Blow back would require a massively heavy slide to counter act the recoil - so much so that you wouldn't really have any savings of weight or compactness over say a short barreled rifle. A double stack magazine of those rounds won't be able to feed reliably either.

Won't be chambering silently in an auto with a slide that heavy either.

[Logan]

Can't really use revolvers very well anymore. It's still impossible for me to load a revolver efficiently with the prosthetic I wear in most situations (and my good one, for going to charity events and such is too expensive to risk, now that my health covereage has been canceled.)

Caliburn, how light and compact do you think you can get if recoil is no longer a concern?

[Ron Caliburn]

That's the thing, if you want to have it semi-auto based of the USP recoil is a concern no matter what - the slide needs recoil and blowback to move or it won't work. A gas action wouldn't have that restriction, but again, gas actions are far more tempermental.

A revolver at least you don't have to worry about reliability. If you absolutly can't reload efficiently, it can be made with a cylander that pops out so you can replace it a little faster.

Of course, firing an elephant rifle cartridge from a handgun is not going to do wonders for you, even if your last name is Kong.

[Logan]

Well Shaytan, if you had been paying attention, you can see where bad intell had me shake hands with a dybukk instead of one of those "bogeyman' bums.

Caliburn, what do you think the heaviest automatic hand-cannon you can get put together is? Think you could chamber in .45 colt (long, not APC)? I also assume, Caliburn, that since we are still talking you have the equipment to build to spec. (Set your price, if the merchandise is good I won't complain, much.)

[Ron Caliburn]

My personal Piece is chambered in .45 Long Colt/.410 shotgun for the versatility - though making it so these rimmed cartridges would feed right was no easy trick.

If you want a large calibre, high powered automatic, perhaps we could look at .44 AutoMag or .50 AE. I think I could adapt a USP working to either of those - but it's still going to be tricky to get the slide right.

[Logan]

Shaytan, Big, grey, no necked, four armed monstrosity strong enough to pull an arm off at the elbow, and give a major beating with it. I think it was a dybukk, not one of those sick bums that generates the boogeyman reports. I think after spending 10 years pushing hunters and nasties back into the shadows I have a little experience with identifying the more common nasties.

Caliburn, the .45 long / 410 shotgun idea interests me, think you can design/build a PDW that could handle the .410 shot rounds?

For the pistol the .50 AE will do, I guess. Was hoping for a more flat ballistic profile at range, but then again, pistols just aint built for that kind of shooting.

[KonThaak]

Boogeyman, bogeyman. I was going for the generic "catchall" term, since your dybbuk doesn't match the layman's terms.

Ask Willie. Dybbuks have been known to possess dead people from time to time. My theory is that it's this possession that has given rise to the legends of spirits coming back... It's either that, or someone drove one of the demons out of a corpse, once, and mislabeled it as what we now call it as, the "Dybbuk".

Either is possible. Either which way, when you say "Dybbuk" around here, people assume that you're speaking of the particular type of demon with four arms, two of which are tiny, and the rest of the abomination's body is built like a professional bodybuilder pushing far more steroids than what should be physically possible.

[Ron Caliburn]

Caliburn, the .45 long / 410 shotgun idea interests me, think you can design/build a PDW that could handle the .410 shot rounds?

For the pistol the .50 AE will do, I guess. Was hoping for a more flat ballistic profile at range, but then again, pistols just aint built for that kind of shooting.

If you want a flat ballistic profile at range, .577 isn't the way to go either. You want something with a little higher of a muzzle velocity and that means a smaller bullet. I'll see what it takes to shoe horn .50AE into a USP style action.

PDW in .45/.410 . . . that's an interesting challenge, might not be able to get you the magazine capacity you'd like. . . but there are automatics in .410, including a varient of the Saiga shotgun - which is a modified AK-47. I wonder how I could do making a drum feed for one.

[Logan]

when you say "Dybbuk" around here, people assume that you're speaking of the particular type of demon with four arms, two of which are tiny, and the rest of the abomination's body is built like a professional bodybuilder pushing far more steroids than what should be physically possible.

That sounds like the SoB that tried to beat me to death with my own arm alright.

Thanks, Caliburn, that pistol sounds like it may fit the bill nicely.

On the PDW, I was not thinking a micro, just something compact enough to slip under the shoulder, calibre choice made simply for versatility. Looked at the Saiga, nice toy, think you could drop about 4" from a .410 model, and set it up to also handle .45 long? (if it needs barrel or chamber swaps, that's fine but need those to be field expedient.)

[Ron Caliburn]

Shouldn't need chamber swaps, but barrel swap might be in order, smoothbore gets your best performance from shot, rifling for your best performance from slugs.

[Logan]

Got any ideas for being able to swap the barrell out? The upper reciever method on teh m-16 is moderately usefull, but a bit hard to do in a high stress environment.

[Ron Caliburn]

Seeing as we're dealing with a modified AK-47, it's going to be a little trickier to work in.

There is no such thing as a tactically useful barrel change though.

[Logan]

Oh well, there any way to keep the rifleing intact when fireing shot? If not go ahead and make it a smoothbore, and pack it in as small of a package as you find feasable, if the recoil won't hurt the moving parts, don't worry about it.

[Ron Caliburn]

Well the .410 is already a smoothbore. It can be rifled, but that messes up the distrubution pattern fo the shots, reducing the effectiveness. Better to use rifled slugs.

It's not recoil I'm worried about in shrinking it down, it's making sure the gas system is unaffected.

Still, will probably get something AKSU sized out of the deal.

[Logan]

Very nice. Oh, can you make the clip retention system extra stout? I would like to be able to slap in some drum magazines in an emergency, and I know that the 100 and 200 round drums do a number on the retention clips in most magazine wells.

[Sophoroto]

Mr. Caliburn how good of a round is the 4570. My dad had a matched rifle and pistol combo that fired that round. The pistol requiered a wrist brace to shoot.

[Ron Caliburn]

Very nice. Oh, can you make the clip retention system extra stout? I would like to be able to slap in some drum magazines in an emergency, and I know that the 100 and 200 round drums do a number on the retention clips in most magazine wells.

Not sure you'll squeeze 100 .410 shotshells into any reasonable sized drum - probably 25 to 30 rounds would be the max. But hey, with shot shells thats a few hundred pellets. Either way, I'll make sure it should hold fast what you put in there.

.45-70 is an older round best used for hunting Soph. It's pretty low muzzle velocity so it has a trajectory like a rainbow, but it's high projectile mass menas it does keep it's energy pretty well and will penetrate nice and deep into flesh.

[Sophoroto]

Is there a way to raise the muzzle volocity and get better range without the rainbow?

[Ron Caliburn]

There are hotter loads for it, but it's really an old design (think late 19th century) and trying to increase it's oomph might result in havign too much pressure for the guns it's designed for.

If you want something with a flatter trajectory look at more moddern rounds like 7.62 or especially 5.56.

[Sophoroto]

I was just thinking that if I found it, I know it is here somewhere, it is old enogh that Mr. Greydawn might be willing to learn to use a fire arm.

[Ron Caliburn]

It's not far past the black powder stage, that's for sure.

[Logan]

If I wanted a long and flat trajectory I'd probly be asking for a Barret rifle, Most likely the 25MM anti material sniper rifle. What I am after at the moment is a sweep peice that is a bit meore versatile as well as more hand load friendly for specific pursuit aplications, primarily urban in nature.


Caliburn, one concern, can you give me a range card with it so I know the dispertion rate for various shot sizes without using trial and error. Collateral damage although a lesser concern is something we avoid if possible.

[Ron Caliburn]

Yeah, with that short barrel it will probably be a pretty wide spread - though since I'm not going to choke the barrel so you cna feed slugs without preperation, won't be as wide as it could be.

[Logan]

As long as I have an estimate of the spread on triple 0, single 0, and med birdshot, I'll be happy. Sometimes I wind up cutting a weapon's range time regrettably short due to feild expediency needs.

[Greydawn]

I was just thinking that if I found it, I know it is here somewhere, it is old enogh that Mr. Greydawn might be willing to learn to use a fire arm.

It's not far past the black powder stage, that's for sure.

Very funny you two. Hmm looks like I may have to change my mind about Maine.

[KonThaak]

Go easy on Soph, Mr. Greydawn... He means the best, despite his jokes..

In these trying times, even I've learned how to use a firearm...though I would highly recommend getting Ron to teach you. When he's teaching the fundamentals, you may feel you want to throttle him from time to time, but I guarantee, he gets his message across, and I'm glad he's the one who taught me.

[Ron Caliburn]

Still remember the blank do you? Good.