Is it really necessary...?

[KonThaak]

Just some late-night ramblings, maybe, but it seems to me that far too many people put far too much stress on who's right and who's wrong in matters of spirituality... I already know a lot of you agree with me on this, so this really isn't a discussion/debate thread so much as it is just me getting some ideas out...especially considering that Halloween is so close, it's keeping me awake at night, thinking. I've got this feeling of foreboding doom, so I feel like it's kinda important to get some of these thoughts out there in the world...

Anyway, enough depressing rambling...

Jesus died almost two millennia ago... A lot of Jesus' words were lost, because most of his teachings were written out posthumously, where his disciples twisted his words to match what they believed... All the teachings were lost for a while, and by the time they were found again (the ones we did find), those who followed the oral traditions could hardly read the old language...so much of it was mistranslated from writings that were made around four decades after Jesus died...and then was translated and mistranslated into several different languages, before it finally reaches English... Now the Bible is held as infallible, but the fact of the matter is, even if it was infallible to begin with, it damned sure isn't, now...and fundamentalists on both sides of the Christian/non-Christian line use the Bible, twist the English phrases completely out of context, and use individual fucked up lines to justify why their side of the debate should hate the other side...

Neither side looks at the core of what Jesus tried to teach... They only look at the shit that his supposed followers did to his teachings, and use that to justify loving or hating some ideal of Jesus that was actually nothing like him at all...

And then there's the God debate on both sides... "God exists because it says so in the Bible" just makes me dizzy...but the opposition's arguments against God's existence just makes my head hurt. "I walked into a church and told him to strike me down if he existed, and he didn't, so he must not exist!" "I keep praying, but I don't get rich, so he must either hate me or not exist...and since the Bible says he loves us all, he must not exist!" "He doesn't cater to my every whim fucking WAH WAH WAH!" and so on. Most of it is either stupid or "cry me a river" type bullshit...

Or how about the "impossible challenges", such as "Can God make a squared circle?" or "Can God make a rock he can't move?" As to the first, it's a fucking pixellated 8-bit "circle", with heavily squared edges. Get over it. (I've actually been told, "But that's not a circle!" to which I replied, "Of course it isn't. It's a squared circle. It's what you ordered, isn't it? If you don't want it, don't order it, dipshit." It made the moron stop and scratch his head long enough, I had time to walk away before he could come up with "Oh, yeah?") As to the second, if a rock comes into being at the center of a singularity (a black hole), it is completely immovable, given the laws of physics, and therefore, if God exists, s/he/it/they couldn't move it given the laws s/he/it/they laid down...but, being omnipotent, s/he/it/they could either end the singularity (causing a supernova), or simply change the laws of physics as s/he/it/they sees fit, making it possible to remove the rock from that singularity, thus making it mobile, and answering the implied "but then there would be a rock that God couldn't move!" challenge. (Incidentally, I've been told I was "cheating" with this answer, before, but, hey, it's God, and if s/he/it/they exist, who's to stop 'em from cheating? God's mom? Ooh, how about God's teacher? Yeah, they'll stop God good. x.x; )

The point I'm building up to, is that these people get answers to their challenges--one of which doesn't even need omnipotence--and they still piss and moan about it...and I've yet to meet a Christian who sat any further to the right of the fence than being left-of-center who would listen to a single thing I said about how just because it's in the Bible doesn't make it true...

In the end, it's all a matter of faith and belief...which is what spirituality is *supposed* to be all about. It isn't about who's right or who's wrong... It's about adopting a set of morals, and living up to them as best you can. Sure, you might slip from time to time, but as long as you can forgive yourself for it, it's all good.

Why doesn't it matter who's right or wrong? Well, say for an instance that the atheists are right, and there is not only no higher power, but there is no afterlife... Scary thought, but when the time comes, we won't have the chance to regret it. Pip, the end. And if the theists are right, and there is a higher power of some sort and an afterlife, if they're telling the truth about God being a loving entity(s), and Jesus being a loving savior, then I would think they'd understand some folks not following them in name, so long as they still embraced ideas of open-mindedness and open-heartedness, something which the most vocal Christians don't do.

Even if such is not the case, and people really do go to Hell (which I don't believe, but whatever), I still say that persecuting people who have different beliefs--whether drastically different or on a more minor scale--invalidate those beliefs by throwing it all away...which kind of implies that Hell is a place everyone goes to...

I dunno. It's getting late, and it's getting hard to gather my thoughts in a coherent, cohesive manner. I'm gonna try and get some sleep... I know I'm gonna need it soon.

[Willie Long]

"Can God make a squared circle?"

Vince McMahon did.

[KonThaak]

Har har har... Had to look that one up. >_>;

[Willie Long]

If you laughed, it was worth it. You been way too gloomy, dawg.

[Ron Caliburn]

KT, to your origional post, it doens't matter who's right or wrogn about what happens after we die, I garuntee that all of us will be surprised.

[Kolya]

All I know is that I once killed the same asshole 4 times.

[GhostSpider]

How did he finally die?

[Kolya]

I killed the mage resurrecting him.

[Ron Caliburn]

But what about the guy who will resurect the mage?

[Kolya]

Don't talk like that, Ron

It's interesting, how this mage managed to get the body back before we finally figured out how to stop it. I'm not telling how, of course, but I will say it just that it confirmed my hatred for arcanists with bad attitudes even more than rune weapons. Human vermin are the worst.

[Ron Caliburn]

Of course they are . . . someone has to give Demons something to work with.

[Kolya]

Makes me see red.

[Ron Caliburn]

Their blood pooling on the floor?

[Kolya]

Yes.

It's quite a rewarding feeling.

[Ron Caliburn]

Unles your the janitor.

[Kolya]

That may be true.

[Ron Caliburn]

I hope you track this down.

Let us know what you find.

[DarKnyht]

Jesus died almost two millennia ago... A lot of Jesus' words were lost, because most of his teachings were written out posthumously, where his disciples twisted his words to match what they believed...

You have to look how history was recorded back then. The people who took part in the event was the best source for history. At first they had that because they were living, preaching and teaching what they learned. The second best witness in that time was witnesses, again at first they were alive. Finally, the fall back if those sources failed was the written word. 50-100 years is not that long of a time for a written history to be done and some of the witnesses probably were still alive then.

All the teachings were lost for a while, and by the time they were found again (the ones we did find), those who followed the oral traditions could hardly read the old language...so much of it was mistranslated from writings that were made around four decades after Jesus died...and then was translated and mistranslated into several different languages, before it finally reaches English...

I don't know where you got your dating from but only the most liberal scholars date the bible that late. Most of them are not taking seriously since they have New Testament fragments from 125 AD. Now if you are talking apocrypha texts then most of them are written later unless you take special pleadings (which have no real facts to back them up other than the person's belief).

You are right though that the Gospels are not word for word what Christ said. Their goal was to get the meaning of his teaching. The Bible doesn't say Jesus crapped and farted but if he was a truly human he did both.

Now the Bible is held as infallible, but the fact of the matter is, even if it was infallible to begin with, it damned sure isn't, now...and fundamentalists on both sides of the Christian/non-Christian line use the Bible, twist the English phrases completely out of context, and use individual fucked up lines to justify why their side of the debate should hate the other side...

Just because the reader doesn't understand what is there doesn't mean it is fallible. People read the english translation and think that is exactly what the person said. They forget that it is a translation of another language and culture. If you don't put it into the context of that you tend to misunderstand things. An example of this is in James it speaks of losing your filth to receive God's word. However the word James used meant filth as in dirty clothes and also meant filth in the ears, such as ear wax.

Neither side looks at the core of what Jesus tried to teach... They only look at the shit that his supposed followers did to his teachings, and use that to justify loving or hating some ideal of Jesus that was actually nothing like him at all...

I won't argue with that, the 'church' today does the very thing Christ preached against. He despised people who played the game of religion. They created elitism and made rules that make it more difficult than what God intended. They created a sin scale that God never intended. They talk of how they found salvation, forgiveness, and acceptance but then show the opposite to those who haven't.

Sorry to rant, but this is a sore spot with me lately. In trying to find my faith again nothing makes me sicker than some of the things I see done in the name of Christ.

[concrete_Angel]

Sorry to rant, but this is a sore spot with me lately. In trying to find my faith again nothing makes me sicker than some of the things I see done in the name of Christ.

You mean like teaching people, healing the sick, and praying for miracles that, every once in a while, actually do come? You get out of your faith exactly what you put into it. If you're just seeing the negative, don't expect God to be all that happy-go-lucky. Meanwhile, some great stuff happens and you're too focused on your own problems to realize it. Sometimes, you just need to get outside yourself, and see a different perspective, before you understand what your faith actually means to you.

[Kolya]

There's a Russian proverb that literally translates as "hunger is not your aunt, it won't bring you pie".

I agree with angel.

[DarKnyht]

You mean like teaching people, healing the sick, and praying for miracles that, every once in a while, actually do come? You get out of your faith exactly what you put into it. If you're just seeing the negative, don't expect God to be all that happy-go-lucky. Meanwhile, some great stuff happens and you're too focused on your own problems to realize it. Sometimes, you just need to get outside yourself, and see a different perspective, before you understand what your faith actually means to you.

What I meant is that I am sickened by churches collecting money to build bigger churches that are not needed, buying fancier electronics for it, and putting the pastor is a half-million dollar home all while their members are living in poverty. The church leadership claims it is sacrifice while it is really exploitation by the leadership. I don't believe any of that was part of Christ's plan.

I also don't agree with the use of Christ's name and the religion anytime someone wants to justify their bone-headed political position. And I cannot agree with priests that are criminals being protected by the church. Is not the church supposed to be moral? This stuff all smells like the stuff of pharisees.

My issues with the church tends to be where churches only pay lip service to God, or simply do horrible things in His name. I believe it was James who wrote to paraphrase "What good is it to claim to have faith when you don't put it into practice?" It is also the double standard the church shows toward outsiders. If you want to test it go into a strange church one day in your oldest, dirtiest clothes and see how they treat you versus going into it in your best. Or be the drug user that goes to church and see how welcoming a congregation really is.

My personal struggles simply put are deep and complex. I have a lot of anger at God over things that have happened in my life, and I am working through my issues with Him. My outrage is not due to anything God has done but what man has.

[Kolya]

That actually clears things up some.

[Eilonwy Solstice]

If you want to test it go into a strange church one day in your oldest, dirtiest clothes and see how they treat you versus going into it in your best.

I tried that once, actually, right after everyone left. Now that I think about it, I probably should have taken Hannah’s offer to do my laundry by hand, but I was determined to go to church and trying to be self-sufficient at the time and told her I’d do it after the repairman came to fix the washer.

I didn’t think to wear jeans or anything casual, and all my good dresses were dirty. I just picked the one that didn’t feel too shabby and left while Hannah was busy.

Shock was the first emotion I felt . . . it was the first time I had been in a church for more than . . . it had been many years. Some people turned their noses, others were quite friendly.

I was too overwhelmed with the idea of getting past the crosses that framed the doors to properly thank them for their kindness.

But I’m pretty sure I thanked Hannah for doing my laundry anyway while I was away.

[Ron Caliburn]

When did you do that? I'm not a big fan of churches but I'd have gone with you.

Seeing as I was with you the last time.

[Kolya]

Yea that happened to me last time I was in McDonalds.

Never been in a church though.

[Ron Caliburn]

They still only have the one?



Given my childhood, organized religions make me uneasy. Still, if one wants holy water, you have to go to the proper source.

[concrete_Angel]

Yeah, you know, I'm not buying that bull, DK. I said you only see what you want to see. Personally, I've never seen people turned away from a church, I've GONE to churches where they'll just go ahead and let me pray, no matter WHAT I was wearing, and I know for a fact that the priests that are committing criminal acts are the VERY minority, especially since the news doesn't exactly cover a story about a priest that does a good job, is liked by his followers, and spends his life teaching that God is forgiving and loving.

And also, if you've got a problem with people using God's name for their own selfish purposes, get pissed off at them, not God. He didn't tell people to do that, it's their own stupid idea.

[Ethan Skinner]

I agree with concrete_Angel. If you have no bones with god, why are you angry at him? Convenient scapegoats are rearely the true culprits.

[Logos]

Too true. The exploitations that churches may commit are not god's actions, but the actions of men, and tragedies and pains that occur to us are not the results of gods wishes, but of either men, paranormal activities, or chance. God granted mankind with free will, and if men did not exercise that free will, even to commit evil, then there wouldn't truly be free will, would there? I'm nearing the end of my break, so I'm going to break off, but hate perpetrators of harmful actions for what they do, but do not pin their lot with the wishes of God.

[Ron Caliburn]

Well there are people out there who wonder that if an all-knowing, all-powerful God exists, why he doesn't smite those who abuse his name and sully his reputation?