Freewill or Destiny

DarKnyht · Post by **DarKnyht** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:03 pm

Here is one for you guys to think about. Does a man have freewill or is everything that he does already planned out and he is just living someone else's script?

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:20 pm

And how would I know?

Shadowstalker · Post by **Shadowstalker** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:53 pm

This is a really old debate, I guess it depends on what you believe. If you believe in a higher power it is not hard to think He/She/It :?:

has a plan for you. But there are others that think if there is a Higher power we have to prove ourselves to it as being worthy, hence free will we decide if we screw up or not.

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:02 pm

The nature of eternity and time figure in as well.
Which means, pick a side, because you are not proving anything.

Bert_the_Turtle · Post by **Bert_the_Turtle** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:25 pm

Free Will is the Balance to Destiny. You can't have one without the other.

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:44 pm

I think he means pre-destiny.
Which is different from destiny.

Bert_the_Turtle · Post by **Bert_the_Turtle** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:49 pm

Same difference.

Without Free Will there can be no destiny or predestination.

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:56 pm

Free will and predestination not being mutally exclusive.
I have never ever heard that before.

Bert_the_Turtle · Post by **Bert_the_Turtle** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:42 pm

In order to be the person you need to be to fulfill some destiny, predetermined or otherwise, you need the free will to grow and explore and change.

Plus, not every prophecy comes true. Will I go Left or Will I go right? If I go left this prophecy comes true and everything down that branch has a chance of happening while everything down the right branch becomes dead.

Just because you're Destined, Fated, Predestined, or whatever doesn't mean you still can't fuck it up. Nothing stops you from shooting yourself in the head or wandering over a cliff.

concrete_Angel · Post by **concrete_Angel** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:44 pm

The biggest mistake people make is assuming that destiny means there are no repercussions for your actions. Most assume that they can claim destiny as a means of avoiding personal responsibility. For example, take the entire plot from Macbeth. Destiny was achieved through the character's actions, and his end came through the same. If you believe something will happen, you will either act to facilitate it, or actively seek to avoid it. Some would argue that this speaks out against the idea of destiny, but not every faction of the future can be plotted out perfectly. Even the most powerful psychics see only a possible future, not a certain one.

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:45 pm

Bert_the_Turtle wrote:Just because you're Destined, Fated, Predestined, or whatever doesn't mean you still can't fuck it up. Nothing stops you from shooting yourself in the head or wandering over a cliff.

Then you were predestined to shoot yourself in the head or wander over a cliff, more specifically that cliff at that time. You had no choice. Like it was said, you are living a script and the ink already dried. You are a mindless automaton following a script already written for you. Like I said it has to do with time and eternity of god that determines if predestination makes sense. If you have Free Will, the problem pretty much goes away.

Not even Aquinas made sense of religion. I sure as hell won't.

Bert_the_Turtle · Post by **Bert_the_Turtle** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:47 pm

That's where Destiny goes hand in hand with Free Will.

The people that are destined to do great things, aren't the kind of people that would just off themselves.

concrete_Angel · Post by **concrete_Angel** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:47 pm

Actually, religion's pretty simple as it relates to this one. It says that God gave humanity free will so that there would be a choice in what he can do. Think of it like a parent. If someone gives birth to a child, there's no guarantee that child will turn out exactly the way you want, just the hope that you're doing the right thing in their raising. The same applies, but on a larger scale. God created humanity, and we have the will to believe in Him, curse Him, ignore Him, or just do whatever the hell we feel like, but in the end, it's what we do with ourselves that's the important issue.

Destiny comes in as more of an ideal or goal to reach. You could ignore it, or achieve it, but the goal is there.

Shadowstalker · Post by **Shadowstalker** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:06 pm

Religion as an Idea is one thing, But when you get people who want to put their own spin on things, particularly when you try to talk about Destiny. That is where you can get in trouble.

concrete_Angel · Post by **concrete_Angel** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:10 pm

This is where I quote the 13th apostle "You can't easily change a belief, but you can change your ideas about it."

(sorry, watched Dogma recently)

GhostSpider · Post by **GhostSpider** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:12 pm

Great movie.

Bert_the_Turtle · Post by **Bert_the_Turtle** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:15 pm

I love that movie.

Shadowstalker · Post by **Shadowstalker** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:18 pm

It had some very good moments.

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:42 pm

Bert_the_Turtle wrote:That's where Destiny goes hand in hand with Free Will.

The people that are destined to do great things, aren't the kind of people that would just off themselves.

If they were predestined to they would

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:42 pm

Bert_the_Turtle wrote:I love that movie.

You've seen a movie?

Sasha · Post by **Sasha** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:43 pm

concrete_Angel wrote:(sorry, watched Dogma recently)

Why are you apologising Angel?
It's not necessary.

concrete_Angel · Post by **concrete_Angel** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:12 pm

Sorry about the bad joke. The point was valid, though.

Sasha · Post by **Sasha** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:17 pm

concrete_Angel wrote:Sorry about the bad joke.

Nonesense. Of course, I like bad jokes, too.

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:24 pm

That you do my friend.

concrete_Angel · Post by **concrete_Angel** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:26 pm

But, does he like them of his own free will, or is he PREDESTINED to like bad jokes?

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:36 pm

I think you'd have to be predestined

Ron Caliburn · Post by **Ron Caliburn** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:45 pm

Things beyond man's control are destiny - things within it are free will.

concrete_Angel · Post by **concrete_Angel** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:17 pm

I like to think of it more as a goal to be reached through your actions. That's why they say destiny is what you make of it.

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:46 pm

Or what's already been made for you and you just make it because you have been predestined to. Hehe.

Kei Nakamura · Post by **Kei Nakamura** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:48 am

A common view back home is that destiny sets the path at your feet, and will repeatedly set the path before you, if and how you follow that path is determined by our free will.