Why do you all do this to yourselves?

Debunker · Post by **Debunker** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:59 pm

I’m not even sure why I try as I'm obviously outnumbered on this forum, but I refuse to give up on the ideal that people can be saved from themselves. While I wish I could, I can’t say this any other way… if you take all this supernatural and paranormal stuff seriously, then you all seriously need help! I know your first impulse is to ignore my plea, but listen to my story and hear me out.

I come from a very wealthy family, and a very eccentric one at that. Since I was old enough to walk I have journeyed with my parents and near relatives, for they would travel from place to place all over the globe in search some bit of truth in the supernatural. From then until my 20’s I’ve had to put up with all their paranormal nonsense. I admired their determination in that while every trip was a bust they kept on looking, but I also despised their taking me along for the ride when I didn’t share their beliefs (and I’ve held my disbelief in the paranormal for a long time.). For all the mountains of files and research articles they had amassed and for all the plane trips, safaris, quests, and whatever else they conducted, not ONE shred of evidence was ever found, NOTHING!

My family name has been dragged through the aristocratic mud for as long as I recall. My family has been labeled every name in the book, and we lived in social exile for it. I had the embarrassments of watching all the family make fools of themselves on whatever podium or soapbox they could stand on, swearing that the truth is out there, it just needs to be discovered. One by one I watched my family exhaust themselves to their graves in their lost cause. Now I’m the last surviving member of the family and all their fortunes, and I had hoped to finally put all this nonsense behind me. But I was wrong.

My fathers last will and testament had an iron clad clause that stated that I would inherit everything ONLY if I continued the family’s paranormal journeys. So I continue to make large donations to whatever paranormal society I can (Including Lazlo I might add), and the fact I have to make at least five journeys or nine months worth of supernatural researching a year. But my father made one slip up, He didn’t say HOW to conduct myself.

I have spent the last few years doing what was promised in making my journeys and continuing the research, but I have made them with the intention of debunking every last detail I find. Not that it’s ever been a challenge to me, but my families archives of research and my journeys in my youth has served me well in seeing the signs and false omens that keep feeding those who wander aimlessly like zombies to whatever place or area he/she hears rumored or reported to be of supernatural significance. To this end I have finally found some satisfaction in my life. In your defense I have seen some remarkable things in my life and travels to be sure, and while I have written off and debunked most of my findings, there are some things that even I can’t explain. But just because I can’t explain what I saw doesn’t mean its something beyond the grasp of our reality.

I fear for you all as I see my family and their friends in many of your posting on this site. I read those who just have harmless questions to the ones who tell tall tales of “Monster hunting” and “Occult busting”. I implore you all to stop and consider what you are doing to yourself and those around you. Seeking professional help is a clichéd term, but there is a reason why it is. As a man of self taught scientific knowledge and forced upon parapsychology from my family upbringing, I understand how important this help can be. I am no different in that I’ve sought mental health and continue to do so. It sounds like some of you are seriously hurting yourselves and other people, and I fear for you. Get help while you can, and leave the supernatural life behind you, for it is a fantasy life.

If you take a moment to think about it, I have spent most of my life either involved in or search for supernatural proof and have yet to find it. I have stood witness to shamans, faith healers, proclaimed psychics and the lot, and not once could any of them prove anything substantial. And their excuses immediately barrage me with everything from “The planets are not in line” “My power is ebbed at this moment” “I have misacted the spell apprearently”, many have the audacity to say that I am responsible for their failures and my “Negative Energy and vibes” are why they cant provide proof. Whether my mind is open or shut has nothing to do with their inability to provide proof.

I have said all I can here, and I promise that I will post of the forum rational explanations or debunk whatever I can. I can only hope my teachings will help you to see the light. Please don’t think ill of me as I’m only out for your interests. I’ve done the homework and have taken the tests. There is nothing out there but the lies that the supernatural exist.

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:10 pm

I am not opposed to you trying to explain things. That is important and valuable contribution to all of "this". I am opposed, however, to you saying that the supernatural is a pack of lies by maladjusted and misguided individuals. I have never seen a werewolf or vampire, however, I am not willing to draw the conclusion that they do not exist. I know that most cases are explainable and explained. Still, I am not willing to draw the conclusion that they do not exist.

It took quite some time to convince folks that the Earth was both round (some apparently remain unconvinced but having been in space, I can tell you, it is indeed round) and not the middle of the Universe despite all the theoretical and observable evidence.

Regarding myself, as someone close to the field of alien visitation to Earth, well, our experiences have taken us down different paths and shown us different things. Your family searched an entire lifetime and proved nothing. Are you that different from them? You are just working from opposing suppositions, hypotheses.

Debunker wrote:But just because I can’t explain what I saw doesn’t mean its something beyond the grasp of our reality.

Consider, for example, the PDE (Pulse Detonation Engine). It exists in theory and computer models, but one has not been developed on Earth. Production is simply beyond human capability at the moment. Now you have reports spanning both time and distance in the US that are wholly consistent with a PDE. So a PDE exists on Earth. How? Channelers talk about a treaty between the US government and an alien race. There have been plenty of UFO crashes on Earth and in the United States. Perhaps the PDE was reverse-engineered or perhaps it was a gift from an alien race. Just as unlikely, perhaps it is so that a human figured out how to produce one of these engines.

Take your pick.

Nothing that you or I have seen will be helpful in this debate. While I personally do not buy into the US government making treaties with aliens, I do not doubt for a moment that the engine might have been reverse-engineered from a crashed UFO.

As an investigator and government operator I can tell you that there are technologies beyond our comprehension in the universe. Outside the grasp of our reality? The jury is still out on some of that.

Debunker wrote:Whether my mind is open or shut has nothing to do with their inability to provide proof.

Unfortunately, I cannot show you the bodies, the wreckage, and the proof you are looking for. A lot of this mumble-jumble about cover-ups is just that... but not all of it. What would it take? Do you need to see a vampire kill someone and observe the victim's transformation into a vampire? Do you need to be taken to a UFO crash site?

Debunker wrote:There is nothing out there but the lies that the supernatural exist.

I am afraid you are flat wrong.

Joseph Darkhold · Post by **Joseph Darkhold** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:20 pm

Well Said, Kolya, Well Said.

Ron Caliburn · Post by **Ron Caliburn** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:43 pm

D, I give you credit for going out and trying to find the truth, at least you're not sitting around on your bum like too many others I know.

I do have a problem with your methodology. It's your basic assumption, or rather the fact that you have one.

I'm sure you've noticed that those who conduct experiemnts expecting to find the paranormal, usually do. Why? It doesn't matter if the paranormal is real or not. their own observations will be coloured by their beleif into seeing any phenomena that doesn't immeditely mess witht he establish laws of physics is obviously paranormal.

Similarly, you, who refese to beleive in the paranormal, will likely never find any evidence of it. Why? Because when you observe something unusual, you immedately use a scientific explanation which is probably theoretical at best because you have the same ammount of vague evidence the beleiver has.

Me, I accept that there are things out there that haven't been explained by science yet. These things are often described in mythology and folklore, but again science has not been able to describe these things yet. So when i go and deal with a case where there mgiht be soemthing strange, I make my preparations based on the premise that i could encounter soemthing mundane, and I could encounter something that just doesn't follow the laws of physics.

Then I get the satisfaction of being always right without ever having the nagging feeling that I just got killed by something I never knew existed.

Lightning Plant · Post by **Lightning Plant** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:08 pm

Ron, that's exactly what I do. That's why I always stash a clip of silver bullets somewhere on me when I'm working a case. You never really know until it's probably too late.

NicksMind · Post by **NicksMind** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:27 pm

Ron you mentioned Mythology and folklore. Which are just nice ways of saying cultures made up stories to try and make people do something. Take the boogeyman for example theory is if you were a bad child the boogeyman would come and get you, a way for parents to get there kids to go to sleep and eat broccoli. In my youth i messed up bad quite a few times but I picked myself up and still live because there are only a few sure ways Im going to die and Monsters is not one of them.

Lynx · Post by **Lynx** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:18 pm

NicksMind wrote:(SNIP)Mythology and folklore. Which are just nice ways of saying cultures made up stories to try and make people do something. (SNIP).

I feel i must interject on this statment for your definition is half wrong Mythology is only made up stories to those who do not belive in them to a follower of the modern religions there is only one god but to followers of the greek gods their are many myth to one is faith to another and vice versa

if you are going to speak of culture please do not speak in such ethnocentric words

The Archaeologist.

mr. e · Post by **mr. e** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:24 pm

both the beleiver who says "their is a god" and the atheist who says "there is no god" speak from faith. only the agnostic who says "i don't know" speaks from logic.

Ron Caliburn · Post by **Ron Caliburn** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:55 pm

Mythology and Folklore are what people came up with to explain things beyond their understanding. Only a fool believes that science has explained everything there is yet.

NicksMind · Post by **NicksMind** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:17 am

Science is the closest thing to the truth. Ron you are right it is stupid to believe that we know everything there is to know especially when it comes to science. We used to think we were the center of the universe but what I am sure of is that there are no demons or mosters on this planet or in this reality.

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:43 am

NicksMind wrote:Science is the closest thing to the truth. Ron you are right it is stupid to believe that we know everything there is to know especially when it comes to science. We used to think we were the center of the universe but what I am sure of is that there are no demons or mosters on this planet or in this reality.

People were no less convinced than you that the Earth was flat. It took Einstein to cause a complete re-think of the universe. Space missions like the Voyagers and Galileo (and now Cassini likely will) shattered much of what people believed to be true about the planets and moons in our solar system.

I am not asking you to change your beliefs. I am asking you to accept that you might be wrong about the existence of demons and monsters and the other things the guys (and girls?) are talking about in these forums.

Contact_21 · Post by **Contact_21** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:12 pm

One thing a scientist needs as much as the facts is his reputation. That is why there is very little official research about "supernatural" events or beings. Think about it, most people, including scientists, want to make a living and if they have the time and inclination, raise a family. So why ruin your reputation by doing such research?

Then again, there a lot of con artists out there. I've read numerous stories of people trying to take advantage of other people by convincing them that a device, a crystal or something else will help them when all that is happening is robbery.

Strange things are happening. Hallucinations happen as does misidentification. Sometimes people pull pranks to frighten other people for their own amusement. This is also referred to as a "hoax."

My only advice. If this sort of thing bothers you, stay away.

Contact_21
Lazlo Agent

Debunker · Post by **Debunker** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:16 pm

I am not asking you to change your beliefs. I am asking you to accept that you might be wrong about the existence of demons and monsters and the other things the guys (and girls?) are talking about in these forums.

What your asking is absurd! Sure, I may not be able to explain everything I've seen right now, there may be things I've seen that science can't even explain right now. But one day it will, I can promise you that, one-day science will explain them. Maybe not today, maybe not even in our life time, but it will be explained. To accept that there may be monsters under the bed is to accept a lie, and I can't do that! How you can accept all these lies so easily bewilders me to my very core!

NicksMind · Post by **NicksMind** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:27 pm

I have spent most of my life looking for an actual and real supernatural occournce but all I have found is people with masks, kids pulling pranks or someone trying to make a quick buck. If supernatural is real I can guarentee that I will fully believe what most people write on this site.

Debunker · Post by **Debunker** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:59 pm

Preach on brother Nick....Preach on.

Lightning Plant · Post by **Lightning Plant** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:03 pm

Debunker wrote:
I am not asking you to change your beliefs. I am asking you to accept that you might be wrong about the existence of demons and monsters and the other things the guys (and girls?) are talking about in these forums.

What your asking is absurd! Sure, I may not be able to explain everything I've seen right now, there may be things I've seen that science can't even explain right now. But one day it will, I can promise you that, one-day science will explain them. Maybe not today, maybe not even in our life time, but it will be explained. To accept that there may be monsters under the bed is to accept a lie, and I can't do that! How you can accept all these lies so easily bewilders me to my very core!

I accept this stuff because I've seen it. I've looked these things in the eye, and smelled their breath (horrible, btw). It's impossible to ignore when you've got claw scars all over.

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:43 pm

Debunker wrote:What your asking is absurd! Sure, I may not be able to explain everything I've seen right now, there may be things I've seen that science can't even explain right now. But one day it will, I can promise you that, one-day science will explain them. Maybe not today, maybe not even in our life time, but it will be explained. To accept that there may be monsters under the bed is to accept a lie, and I can't do that! How you can accept all these lies so easily bewilders me to my very core!

There's no monsters under my bed either. That was not what I was talking about. Your promises mean nothing to me or reality. I promise that the Atlantic Ocean is going to turn pink some day. Big deal.

Lynx · Post by **Lynx** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:20 am

i would like to state that unlike my fellow skeptics here i am not disclaiming anything that has been said here based on what i have commonly heared refered to as a closed mind or a "nega" i am doing what i have always done and always will do i am doing what i was tought i am asking for proof that is my job to discover proof, evidence facts i do this through questioning and re-questioning but answears that cant be found as of yet give no reason to think/beleive other wise i have never had a "super-natural" or "paranormal" or "pyshic" experience in my life and for the last 20 years have been to numourus archaeological sites searching for these so called truths that so many on these boards claim and in the end all i have seen is nothing but overzealous imaginations or twisted perversions of the truth/evidence/facts but i tire of trying to understand something when no one will give me a chance to look at the evidence in situ i frequent these boards for one reason and one reason alone and will continue to do so untill i find what it is i seek and while i try to stay out of discussions such as these where as it seems turns into "closed minds" vs "open minds" the un-scientific validity of some of these claims annoys me to no end so i find my self subject to interject

The Archaeologist.

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 10:55 am

Lynx wrote:The Archaeologist.

Are you skeptical about the existence of punctuation, too?

(joke!)

But seriously, you might want to ask someone if you can join them on a mission rather than walking around old dig sites. Spend a week in the life of one of the guys here who make the claims you have yet to see for yourself.

As a government operator I cannot show you the physical evidence so I understand that you might not believe me. The other independent guys here, however, can perhaps show you something.

One of you will walk away somehow changed.

NicksMind · Post by **NicksMind** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 2:07 pm

Kolya I have been on several Investigations with so called "Ghost hunters" and have found nothing, they claimed to be able to track ghosts and eliminate them, I went along hopeing for actual proof of Supernatural presences put to no avail. How can you explain that one away?

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 9:05 pm

NicksMind wrote:Kolya I have been on several Investigations with so called "Ghost hunters" and have found nothing, they claimed to be able to track ghosts and eliminate them, I went along hopeing for actual proof of Supernatural presences put to no avail. How can you explain that one away?

I do intend to explain it away. I certainly understand your point of view but if you are so intent on the truth, then my only suggestion is to keep trying.

NicksMind · Post by **NicksMind** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 12:46 am

I have not stopped but I can not go on believing in it I can only take cases and look for the truth but Moulder was wrong in the truth it is out there but Kolya it isnt what you expect.

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:50 am

NicksMind wrote:I have not stopped but I can not go on believing in it I can only take cases and look for the truth but Moulder was wrong in the truth it is out there but Kolya it isnt what you expect.

? And what do I expect it to be?

I have not made up my mind yet.

Ron Caliburn · Post by **Ron Caliburn** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:43 pm

NM, D, if either of you can proove that every single alleged paranormal or supernatural encounter is conculsively explainable in mundane/scientific ways, then I'll beleive you.

Unfortunately there are way too many of these encounters for them all to be investigated, and many of those investigations have to end without conclusive proof because it just doesn't always exist.

NicksMind · Post by **NicksMind** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:18 am

maybe you just need a PROPER investigator, because every single one I have looked into ended with a deranged person not demon. You are right though there are is to much paranioa to investigate it all.

Ron Caliburn · Post by **Ron Caliburn** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 6:21 pm

I do the best I can with the tools I have. I won't say I'm the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I definitely can discern what's really going on.

But there definitely needs to be more of us.

NicksMind · Post by **NicksMind** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:29 pm

thats would make things even worse than it already is.

Ron Caliburn · Post by **Ron Caliburn** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:36 pm

Worse, for the monsters.

NicksMind · Post by **NicksMind** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:20 pm

No, for the citizens of the United States of America who have not been pulled into your lies and deciets but the more people you brainwash the worse our country becomes, and you are blind to the truth.

Ron Caliburn · Post by **Ron Caliburn** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:25 pm

Which truth is that? That we are vulnerable to attack or that the average citizen should take responsibility for making this nation a better place to live in?

Why do you all do this to yourselves?

Why do you all do this to yourselves?

What is the supernatural?