Society Member needs a gun

[GhostSpider]

Yes, I know. I have often made known my distaste for firearms. I prefer getting in close and personal. However, recent personal introspection on my part has revealed a need to expand my arsenal.

I'm looking for something light enough to fire one handed, but heavy enough to do some damage to the beasties I usually face. I am most certainly not an expert on firearms, so I am asking our local gun nuts this: What do you think I should look at?

[Holister]

I must recommend the .45 OPSEC auto loader. It has stopping power, ambidextrous safety, 12 round mag, packs quite a punch with minimal kick.

[Ron Caliburn]

Well if you're looking for a hand gun, you go to a gun shop and try a few weapons until you find one you like. Here are some rough criteria in approximate order of importance.

1) It's comfortable to hold in 1 or 2 handed grip.
2) You can fire it from either hand.
3) You can easily operate the safety, magazine catch and other features.

As for calibre, I'd recommend most of the medium calibres, especially those readily commercially available (which means9mm or .45 ACP are your most likely choices). The other calibres tend to be more expensive and are not necissarily carried at all places you can buy ammunition. Also the really powerful calibres tend to be difficult to get the hang of and have too much recoil for rapid aimed fire.

In terms of there effect on the body, .45 and 9 mm are close enough together that it probably doesn't make a great difference. Magazine capacity should be at least 10 rounds on a .45 and 15 on a 9 mm if you can get one that feels right.

But still, most important is the gun feels right in your hands.

[Holister]

That's good an' all there Ron, but the boy ain't buyin' golfclubs or a new pair o' pants. Sure it has to work well, and he sure as Hell best be able to use it first, but one does not buy a firearm to be a fashion accessory.

People have a gun in order to do one thing with, that is to shoot someone or something with. That means ya' be wantin' some thing with power. A handgun is only as good as the round you put in the target.

For stoppin' power I recommend the heavy caliber rounds such as the .45, 10MM, or if you can get it the .50 (very rare, but not impossible).

If you want knock down power go with your shotgun. Nothin' says "Thank You Sir" like a close and personal shot to the head with a good ol' 12 gauge. Remember though, you got both soild slugs and various degrees of "shot". I prefer the OO, its a reliable huntin' round. For more stoppin' power the lower the gauge, the large the shot within the shell.

A good rifle is alway nice to have on hand for two reasons; 1) it packs a pretty decent punch, and 2) it allows you to attack from a safe range (so says the Society's top Sniper ).

On a side note, stay away from automatics like sub-machineguns or assault rifles. One...full auto weapons are not normally available through conventional channels and in most staes they are considered illegal. So the weapons you would be able to get are probably low quality refurbished semi-autos that have been converted into full auto. These weapons are unreliable and tend to jam frequently.

Next lesson - A gun is only as good as the Round.

[Joe Smith]

Go to a range and fire several and pick one you like.

For a man stopper, I would start with a .357 revolver, like a S&W Model 66 with a 4' barrel. Its a stainless large frame revolver that will never jam and is as durable as the come. Not too much weight, but hefty enough to quell the recoil. Run a set of combat sights like guttersnipes, and pachmayr grips and you will have probably the best combat pistols there is. The only downside is reloading quickly requires speedloaders, which is slower than replacing clips on a semi auto.

You can also get the .41, and .44 mag variants. I presonally like the S&W Model 29 with a 5" barrel. Think Dirty Harry. Its a very well balanced gun.

You can also get the Dan Wesson wheelguns, which are chambered for the .357 and .445 supermag rounds. These are well made guns that will also take all the standard magnum rounds.

For an auto, I would start with a .45acp gun, and fall back onto the 10mm. The classic colt M1911 is a great gun. Especially when accurized. Its single column clip only lets it carry 7 rounds, but its a slim well balanced gun. Sig Sauer makes some very nice autos in both calibers and you can't really go wrong with any of them. The Smith & Wesson autoloaders and good if you get one with a steel frame. The aluminum frame versions have a tendancy to crack at the slide rails, especially with the 10mm. The .45 will drop someone as well as a .357. The 10mm is a real high velocity round for a pistol cartridge and has great penetration, but doesn't impart the energy to the target like a .45 or magnum round.

I have made a pair of revolvers for myself that use .45-70 rounds after seeing it in a Magnum research BFR. They are actually excellent when handloaded.

You can also look at the Ultra magnum revolvers that are around, like the .500 and .460 S&W. But they are really too heavy to be used for anything but bench shooting. They are around 5 lbs for the smallest versions! A .50 S&W with a 5" barrel looks like a cartoon gun however and has an intimidation value few other handguns can match.

If you want a short assult rifle that is really hard hitting, a AR-15 that is chambered for .50 Beowolf is a monster. Getting the ammo can be a problem though, so unless you have a chance to stock, up, its probably not a good choice.

However for shortrange stopping power, as said above, nothing really beats a 12g loaded with 00 shot.

[Holister]

Just imagine if all the gun guys here went to a gun show. That would be a scary thought. We'ld probly be asked to leave after an hour. You know about the time Ron punches out the security gaurd for harassin' them for not sellin' silver bullets.

[Reckoner]

If you're looking for a handgun with versatility, I'd recommend the Taurus 4510 Judge revolver. It takes both 45 Long Colt rounds, as well as 410 Gauge shotgun ammunition. It's decent sized, and has the versatility for varied ammo types. If you want a one gun, multi-option for everything to FMJ, hollow point, wad cutters, buckshot and more? That's a pick I recommend.

[Ron Caliburn]

A gun is worthless unless you can comfortably use it Ben. Same applies to any weapon or tool. If it's uncomfortable or a hassle to use, you avoid using it, even when you really should.

That is why a weapon should feel right when you use it.

As for the power of the rounds - the heavier rounds may have more terminal effect, but they come with their own problems.

1) To get the best out of the really powerful rounds requires a lot of practice. The heavier recoil creates a slower rate of fire and makes it harder to stabilize the gun for a quick follow up shot. To use those rounds effectively in combat requires an expert marksman. GS may have many talents, but he is coming to guns late and life and reluctantly. I doubt he will be able to develop those sorts of skills without a level of commitment to shooting that he simply doesn't have.
2) Cost, the more powerful rounds and the guns that fire them cost significantly more. GS seems more interested in an alternative weapon if he needs it than a primary piece.
3) Weight - they also weigh a lot more. GS is primarily a close quarters combatant, something bulky and heavy on his hip slowing him down and affecting his balance is the worst thing for him. That is liable to make him want to leave it behind.
4) Ammunition availability. I can walk into any Gun Shop, Wal-Mart or Hardware store and find 9mm and .45 rounds. If I want a 10 mm I look for specialty shops. If I want a .50 round (remember, GS is talking handguns here Ben) I go to a specialty shop, make a special order and wait 3 to 6 weeks for delivery.
5) How much effect the really have. In practical terms the 9 mm and .45 have very similar effects on the human body. There's a body of anecdotal literature out there claiming otherwise, but the actual science on the matter rates them too close to call. The .45 might do a slight bit more tissue damage, causing more blood loss, but the 9mm penetrates deeper making it more likely to clip a major organ. Both are medium power pistol rounds and thus have similar capabilities, which is why I said he could choose either easily.
6) Shot placement trumps calibre. Being able to put the bullet somewhere will it will do the most damage is more important than having the most powerful gun. Do you know which calibre has killed more people outside of war than any other since the introduction of the cartridge firearm? It isn't 9 mm, it isn't .45, it isn't 5.56 NATO or 7.62 Soviet it's the .22LR. Unless GS is going to put in the work to become a true expert marksman, the weapon he can fire quickly gives him the most chances to put rounds in target. The mixture of rapid fire, ease of use and target effect is the reason medium power handguns are so popular - hence the 9 mm and .45's longevity (both rounds are more than a century old now).

So the heavy ordinance, while it may be a good choice for you and me, doesn't fit so well with someone like GS. Of course, if GS were to advise us on shopping for swords, we'd probably see something very similar to what I suggest about guns - one that feels right, is comfortable to use and matches our abilities.

I haven't commented on longarms because that isn't what GS asked about - but my proclivity towards shotguns is pretty well known for the reason of versatility.

[Ron Caliburn]

Yes, the Taurus line are good - but again the situation of learning to master a powerful handgun taking longer than a medium calibre one rears it's head. Shotshell may provide more forgiveness on the aim, but it doens't provide that much.

[finder_fee]

I'm firmly in the "go to a range and try some out" area.

First of all, you need to find a weapon that fits in your hand. Most of the boys out here are average sized, so it's like buying off the rack, (to continue someone else's fasion accesery comment earlier) But if you are a Big person or a small one, you need to find something that will actualy fit. too small a gun on a large hand and you can actualy catch yourself on the slide. Too big a gun on a small person and you don't get a good enough grip on it to keep recoil under control.

and anyone who says otherwise buys off the rack...

Second of all, you can listen to all of our expertise and take all of our advise, and once you get to a range, find that none of it is right.

For a beginner shooter though, for a pistol, start with a 9mm or lighter. You want to get used to the recoil before you take a .45 or bigger in your hands... and if you have the chance, don't start with a range but take someone who knows what they are doing out to the field out in the middle of nowhere, and shoot up some cans or something. Kill trees, bottles, squash, anything that will sit still. Make a day of it.

That being said, for a concealable weapon that can stop small charging rhinos of the undead persuasion, nothing beats a sawed off shotgun... just don't even think about trying one until you have some experience with the full sized ones, not unless you want to be mocked here by everyone for years to come.

Fi

[Grace]

I'm firmly in the "go to a range and try some out" area.

First of all, you need to find a weapon that fits in your hand. Most of the boys out here are average sized, so it's like buying off the rack, (to continue someone else's fasion accesery comment earlier) But if you are a Big person or a small one, you need to find something that will actualy fit. too small a gun on a large hand and you can actualy catch yourself on the slide. Too big a gun on a small person and you don't get a good enough grip on it to keep recoil under control.

and anyone who says otherwise buys off the rack...

Second of all, you can listen to all of our expertise and take all of our advise, and once you get to a range, find that none of it is right.

For a beginner shooter though, for a pistol, start with a 9mm or lighter. You want to get used to the recoil before you take a .45 or bigger in your hands... and if you have the chance, don't start with a range but take someone who knows what they are doing out to the field out in the middle of nowhere, and shoot up some cans or something. Kill trees, bottles, squash, anything that will sit still. Make a day of it.

Fi

Yeah, I'm going to have to second this. Hand size is important. I don't use the same caliber my father used because I have smaller hands than he did. And learning from an expert is the way to go. Nothing wrong with shooting up some cans.

It sorta takes me back.

[Holister]

O we'll settle this. GS when ya' come up to help me with my beastie problem we'll ead on over to the range and ya' can try out some different guns and see which one ya' like the best.

[GhostSpider]

That will probably work out best, cause while you guys are speaking english, I can't understand a word your saying.

[Holister]

Why the heck do ya' want a gun anyway, I have seen you fight. You could have ya' own baddly dubbed martial arts movie your that good.

[GhostSpider]

It's always good to have a second string to your bow.

[Holister]

I suppose thats a good idea I reckon, but god help me if pick out anything less than 9mm, so help me I will toss your ass in the lake and drive away.

[GhostSpider]

Why would I want to go under 9mm?

[Ron Caliburn]

There are valid cartridges with a less than 9 mm diameter - some of them more powerful, some of them less powerful - all can kill in the right hands.

Still, 9 mm has become the world's preeminent combat pistol calibre for a reason - it's in the sweet spot. It mixes penetration, tissue damage, magazine capacity and controllability in almost the perfect amounts.

Any other round you're making a trade off in some way compared to the 9 mm.

Ben (and many others I must add) feel that any trade off that reduces penetration and tissue damage below the threshold set by the 9mm makes for a round that's too weak. The contrary argument is that rounds that try for greater tissue damage or penetration than the 9mm tend to be difficult to control and have reduced magazine capacities.

Find what works out for you and don't worry about the numbers. A .22 LR can make 1 shot kills - but you need to be an expert to do it. A .50AE can also make 1 shot kills, but you need to be an expert to do it. In between is a sweet zone in which more casual shooters can be reasonably effective.

[Holister]

I've used a .50 handgun once. Some Russian made job. Nice handgun, but it had one hell of a kick. Deffinitely not a one handed shooter.

I've also used a .22 a few times when I was a kid. We used it a starter pistol and to shoot rats. Wasn't much good for much else.

My pop taught me to shoot with his ol' .45 service pistol. Guess that's why I favor that handgun the most. When I tried out the OPSEC .45 I fell in love with it. It was the perfect sidearm for me.

I made it a point to make sure all my deputies were trained in both 9mm and .45 handguns, as well as the.38 revolver. They are also trained in 12 gauage shotgun, .30-06 rifle, and HK MP5.

What can I tell you, I like to make sure my men have their bases covered.

[finder_fee]

Army basic teaches you to fire automatic rifles, and pistols. It is somewhat limited in what weapons they train you in. Also, you don't really need to keep your hand in after basic. At least not if you are in a support position.

Still, it's never a bad idea to go out to the range and fire a few.

I got in a lot of practice with a desert eagle, and even for a good two handed grip, in a proper stance, it was a bit much for me. I never was a great shot with a rifle.

I admit, I like the smaller callibres for target shooting, but yeah, 9mm is probably my choice for any kind of life threatening situation. Lets not even go into ammunition choices though... this is supposed to be an advice column for someone starting out...

Fi

[Holister]

Stay away from those imports though. Try to buy an American made handgun, preferably Colt or Smith & Wesson. They are reliable firearms that will not let you down.

I almost forgot, have you considered revolvers? They are often light, easy to use, and with a speed loader are not as time consumin' to reload either. I standard .38 might be right up your alley.

[Joe Smith]

I am a licensed gunsmith, so I have a decent modern weapons collection at my place (a few hundred handguns at last count) and a private indoor range in the basement. Its pretty much soundproof and I live in an industrial area anyways.

Like I said above. Go to a range and try them out. Also try out different holsters. I have a bunch of them too.

[Holister]

Maybe after we bag this critter I got up here I can take both you guys out to the range and give GS some pointers.