Christmas trees were never a symbol in themselves. And unless you follow the ancient Germanic pagan beliefs, it's quite frankly a social and cultural symbol for people now. Kind of like a Coca-Cola bottle.

Things are holy in name only.

There are no gods to make things holy.

"God is dead."-Nietzsche

"Nietzsche is dead."-God

There is no god. That was Nietzche's fundamental misunderstanding.

There's an old Judeo-Christian-Islamic belief that says that God is in all things...

There's an old Taoist belief that the Tao is in all things...

There's an old Shinto belief that says that there resides a spirit in all things (though some spirits are more prominent than others)...

There's an atheistic view that says that there is no divinity, but that we do definitely have souls (though whether or not the atheists who believe this calls them souls varies from group to group), and that as such, we have power... (There are also vast sects of atheists who not only don't believe this, but who actively disbelieve it.)

Dr. Lazlo called all of this "PPE", and as I recall, he noted that it's in all things, both living and not...though the PPE not found in living things was generally just called "ambient PPE", and as such, not terribly noteworthy at all. Nevertheless, it is there.

Regardless of what you call it or what you believe, it is there...and pretty much everyone agrees that it's fueled by the power of belief. If you believe you can manipulate it thus, you can manipulate it thus. I have seen a vampire repelled by a cross that was nothing more than a pair of sticks held together at the last possible moment by a devout Christian who had a prayer on her lips...and I've seen a vampire completely ignore a cross, blessed by a priest, held aloft by an atheist who didn't believe the cross would save him. (He had other means to protect himself, but it was a rather stupid experiment.)

So to answer Natasha's challenge, it's both the symbol and the divinity within...but not only the divinity within the symbol itself, but within the person utilizing the symbol.

To answer Ron's question... Yes, it could, if you believed that the Christmas tree in question brought you somehow closer to your divinity. Otherwise... Well, otherwise, it's just a tree.

Kolya wrote:There is no god. That was Nietzche's fundamental misunderstanding.

Yeah, well, you don't see Nietzche anymore, do you?

Ron Caliburn wrote:What if there are enough people who beleive in the tree nearby, even if the holder doesn't.

That could work, if they're close enough nearby.

In theory, the lights of the tree would then become painful to the vampire.

For the record, I'm not certain my belief in the symbol of a Christmas tree would be strong enough, so I won't be testing this theory, myself.

She doesn't agree with Lazlo on occasion, too.

Ron Caliburn wrote: A cross, I work with that because I am most familar with it. In this case I had some eletrical tape on my flash light and shined it on him from behind.

KonThaak wrote: ...and I've seen a vampire completely ignore a cross, blessed by a priest, held aloft by an atheist who didn't believe the cross would save him.

So then Ron, the question is did you believe that the cross you created on your flash light would affect the vampire?

By my understanding, the evergreen was brought in to the house, by certain pagan peoples, during the winter solstice, in an attempt to remind them that the world was still alive and not as dead as it looked through the door. As time progressed this became more and more ritualized till people made bringing the tree in a part of their religion.

The early Christian Church who desired to bring another faith under their auspice accepted the winter solstice as the date they celebrated the birth of Jesus. In turn the Roman Catholic Church accepted many of the traditions of the pagan people they converted, which included bringing an evergreen tree into the house during the winter solstice. So then after time passes and the tradition spreads around the people begin to attach the idea of the evergreen tree to the birth of the Christ therefore the Christmas tree.

Now days, believers and nonbelievers alike celebrate Christmas. The tree itself has never truly been a religious symbol and now it has been snagged by big business. Companies, use the Christmas tree and the Christmas holidays to promote the season where they make the most income and as such it is slowing spreading around the world.

So is it a holy symbol? Not really.
Can it be used as a holy symbol? Not a test I want to volunteer for.
Can belief empower the Christmas tree? I believe so, but not a test I want to volunteer for.

Droopy

Holy according to whom?

Until the Christians labeled the pentagram as the sign of the devil, it was the holy sign of the fertility goddess.

At least, if Dan Brown can be beleived.

It was also, if some sources are correct, the symbol of white witchcraft for several centuries...

RIGHT SIDE UP, the pentagram is a holy symbol.
UPSIDE DOWN, it's a sign of the devil.
Same could be said about the cross, unless you believe in the Saint Peter's cross.

Eilonwy Solstice wrote:Blue Spruce, fir trees, and other popular Christmas decorations never stopped Celeste . . . decorated, flocked, or bare. However, sacred symbols stopped her completely, whether the holders were firm believers in the faith or not. Some things didn’t have to be sacred at all. Wolfsbane, holly, bodies of water . . . .

For one, I doubt anyone's really thought of using Christmas decorations as defenses before, and I doubt very many people really believe that Christmas trees and decorations truly bring them any closer to their divinity, so it's not surprising that Celeste was never repelled by such things...

Your other point does bring up an interesting thought. What if the vampire's beliefs influence the power of the symbol being presented to them? Celeste was a rarity in that she possessed a human soul, and had the freedom to understand her own beliefs and whatnot... What if the subconscious former beliefs of a vampire also affects what will affect them?

I guess what I'm trying to say is...if a vampire was a Christian before, perhaps the cross has more of an impact on them than if they weren't. It could explain why Celeste was impacted by any cross, despite the faith of the wielder, while I experienced a vampire that completely ignored a cross...

Just a few thoughts.

That is true... I've never seen an atheist try using holy water against an atheistic vampire, though.

Hmm but is there such a thing as an Atheistic Vampire? I am being kind of serious here. What would turning into a vampire do to your views about reality?

Natasha wrote:If you stick a cross in the ground and walk away from it a vampire is going to avoid it - whether or not it's blessed/holy doesn't really matter, does it; like you said, it can be two sticks held together and it still will keep them away. I bet if you stand a nega next to it the vampire would still avoid it; after all both the vampire and the cross exist even if the nega doesn't believe it about either.

It's the symbol and its innate power (what you named as 'divinity' - God, Tao, Mother Earth, Whatever label and the surrounding mythos ascribed to it) which is sparked by the creation of the symbol. The user's belief might boost the effectiveness or the power of the symbol but that may not necessarily be so. It doesn't matter how much I believe or disbelieve in a diabolistic experiment or even a ward that I know works. They are what they are and they sometimes fail and they sometimes work. I personally have nothing to do with that determination.

If you draw a rune, the process can trigger a mystic event which empowers the rune. Same thing when you create a cross. It's mystically energised to repel and even damage vampires. There are execptions to every rule so it doesn't surprise me a vampire could be powerful enough or dedicated enough to fight through the revolting power of a cross. I could lift a car if I really needed to even though I couldn't lift Bert off the ground with a bear hug under normal circumstances.

That's not always entirely true. You need to charge your runes with energy, just as I need to charge mine... While the symbol itself can start things off, there needs to be energy to support it.

It's possible that the atheist I saw (a Secular Humanist, for those who're curious) disbelieved in the blessings of the cross so completely that he undid them, rendering the cross into a harmless ornament...and at the same time, the vampire that attacked him also disbelieved in the divinity of the cross, allowing him to ignore the fact that it was being brandished in his face. (If it weren't for me, there'd be one less atheist in the world...)

Finally, never forget that the meaning of a symbol can be changed and twisted, through the application of negativity and enough energy. I am, of course, referring to the German Swastika, an old Germanic rune of power. That was why Hitler used it; its meaning and heritage, he felt, would help not only his bid for power, but would help him while he was in power. With time, it twisted from being a relatively unknown rune of strength and victory into a symbol of hate and intolerance, reviled the world over. You could pry still use it as a power rune, but it would be a black mark in your rune casting...

Shadowstalker wrote:Hmm but is there such a thing as an Atheistic Vampire? I am being kind of serious here. What would turning into a vampire do to your views about reality?

I see atheism as a possible escape tactic... "If there were a loving higher power, this wouldn't've happened to me, and I wouldn't be getting controlled by this guy."