Let me start by saying that I know this is a touchy subject, but I do not intend to judge, merely discuss the views of any paticipant's chosen religion. If the topic or teh views expressed offend any of you I am sorry, but please do not post unless it is in the intrest of a serious and civil discussion.

1. Is the true purpose of all religions to channel energy to a powerful being "not of this earth" in the form of P.P.E. and prayers?
(I know that this is both true and untrue of shinto, the Kami are both a part of this earth and yet reside in a seperate realm)

2. Would a kind and goodly diety(ies) send a good being to eternal suffering, merely for not beliving a particular teaching?
(Irrelevant in my case, as for me there is no heaven or hell - only a cycle of rebirth untill enlightenment is attained)

3. Is it possible that the higher power(s) are actually creations of mankind, created and given power by the dreams and beliefs of our species as a whole?
(I consider this to be both possible and likely, in my travels I have found that phenomina tend to manifest in ways consistant with the local culture and belife structure - a clear tie between the local religion and the manifestation of supernatural occurances)

4. Why is it that evil seems to attract ruthlessly powerfull morons in general, while goodness tends to attract people of more limited means who approach the conflict more intelligently?
(Natural selection? Evil uses power to seduce those with a desire for it, those with out a great deal of power over others must be more cautious and plan better or be destroyed before they can spread thier message.)

5. Why is it that religions that preach peace, and the striving of good to overcome evil seem to automaticly consider other religions with exceptionally similar teachings (sometimes even as far as following the same path in slightly different ways) to be evil?
(A case of the leadership of the religions not wanting to have any opposition to their power?)

6. If the diety(ies) are good, why do they allow suffering and pain in the world while evil has no qualms with taking a physical interest in enforcement of their wills?
(The powers of good want us to find and understand the path they desire people to follow while evil only cares about the supremacy of their will\power.)


Last but by far not least.
7. Is there room on earth for goodly men of widely differing views to co-exist regardless of their religions?
(The tolerance shown on this board give me a great deal of hope that the answer is a simple "YES, Yes there is my friend.")





In closing I want to thank you all in advance for the maturity you all show in your responses, and the deep, awareness expanding thoughts that such a discussion brings when carried out in a civil manner.

First Shang Li, i'd like to thank you for the enormous headache and nose bleed I now have. The moment I finished reading you post, nearly every single one of the souls of Karlash's former wielders (they're bound to the blade) started shouting in my head. That's nearly a THOUSAND voices. Suffice to say, pandemonium doesn't even describe it. Well, once I managed to get them all to shut up (that took awhile and I'm pretty sure Bert was a little worried for my sanity when I started shouting at thin air), I got to thinking about your questions. Here's what I..we..urgh...I think:

1.Maybe and maybe not. I've always believed that religion was one of the paths a person could take to find the answers to all those questions that life throws at you. However...damnit, SHUT UP...Karlash tells me that the Gods do exist, and he has never lied to me before.

2. Like you Shang, this is for me a moot point. When I die my soul will be bound to this blade. There will be no Paradise or Hell for me.

3. considering the pressure building in my head when I look at this one, i'm going to pass on it.

4.I don't totally agree here. I've met men during my tarvels who, while quite evil, also held to their own twisted code of honor. And some of them came from humble means themselves. I think that Evil, like Good, is a way of defining the world for some people. I also think that trying to divide everyone up into good and evil is foolish.

5.A religion, no matter how benevolent, is defined by the people who make it up. We humans are a fractious bunch, and it shows in our religions. We divide our selves up into different creeds and churches, and even when faced with an excellent reason why our religions should get along, we completely and totally refuse to do it. This is most likely caused by man's psychological need to suceed over his fellow man. It has led us to our highest peaks and our greatest downfalls.

6.Not getting into this one either.

7.Of course.

Oh, and Hannah. P.P.E means Potential Psychic Energy. It's pretty much a term for magical energy.

Heh... This topic needs some nice layman's perspectives, eh?

1. That's probably the original intention of prayer, but I think most who pray now do it out of fear of damnation or whatever each religion's equivalent is.

2. I have a hard time believing that to be true. I've known way too many really good people who aren't christian, and I'd like to believe my god is benevolent... so I'm going to have to go with a no on that one.

3. Well, yeah, it's possible. I don't think, though, that it's really the case. I mean... how does the idea of that god gain enough clout that it becomes an entity? Everyone believes slightly differently, so I think if this were the case, gods would actually be disfigured and mentally psychotic because of everyone's different beliefs about that god. Two people who follow the same god still would have different conceptions about it, right?

4. That's easy. It's because power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Corrupt powers want to gain the assistance of other corrupt individuals. I think it's because evil entities are closer to being like powerful or rich people that they appeal to those individuals.

5. Uhm... not so easy... Is it because the followers are so dogmatic that they can't think for themselves, and anything that diverges from their EXACT belief structure is automatically evil?

6. Ah, the old "Why do bo bad things happen to good people"? Well, I've always looked at it like this: From all things comes some good. No matter how bad something is, no matter how much suffering an event causes, there is some good that comes out of it, no matter how minute it is.

7. I try, and like to believe I do a good job of it, to live like that in my own life. I think it's very possible, but it just takes some understanding on everyone's part to make it work... Getting a population of people to get EVERYONE to pull their heads out of their asses is pretty tough, though, so something like that may not happen any time soon.

Wow... There's so much to answer here, and so many ways I could answer it.

Right now, I need to go take care of the puppy and baby, so I'll answer this in a little bit...

I will take a stab at this, but as we have seen before my beliefs are not very PC.

1. I am not sure if this is the case. If I am to believe the bible I was taught with then that is a possibility of everyone but Jehovah, as there is no god but Jehovah. Perhaps this is true of the entities and beings acting as the other gods.

2. A God that gave man free will. Christ was fairly blunt when he said, "I am the way, the truth and the light. No one comes to the father except through me." According to Christianity the only way to be absolved from the original sin of man is to be covered by the blood of Christ. However, because you have free will you can choose to not accept that truth and be a good person that goes to hell.

3. Again, I would say that supernatural beings take up the roles of higher powers for their own purposes. See 1 for more clarification on my opinion.

4. Evil in essence is selfishness, it is easier to be selfish and by being so you tend to hoard power. To quote Yoda, "The Dark Side it is easier, quicker and more seductive.

5. It is not that they are evil, it is that their road ultimately leads to destruction. There are many good people going to hell because they are still under the original sin. See 2. for more details.

6. God gave us free will, if he imposed what is right on us then we would not have free will we would be robots. You are free to believe or not. It is your choice, even if that choice damns you.

7. At least with Christianity, we are supposed to be showing the attributes of Christ. Christ told non-believers the truth of their fate, but loved them unconditionally. Perhaps if more "Christians" showed that same compassion and love there would be less evil in the world. However, never forget that evil men have used all religions for their own purposes. The history of the Catholic Church is filled with Popes more concerned with earthly power than building God's Kingdom.

Warnings: Loooooooooooong-winded post ahead. The following are the views of a single druid, and do not necessarily represent the views of the rest of the Lazlo Society. Everything stated herein is based in theory and belief; I do not claim to know what lies Beyond and Between. All I have to go on for that was the advice and stories of my spirit guides, whom I have been out of contact with for some 4 or 5 years, now.

And now, because I'm tired of scrolling up and down 'cuz I can't remember all the questions... For your convenience, quotes included!

Shang Li wrote:1. Is the true purpose of all religions to channel energy to a powerful being "not of this earth" in the form of P.P.E. and prayers?

That would depend on the being one is praying to. To begin with, as has been pointed out, now, there are supernatural entities calling themselves gods to feed on the energy offered to them by their followers. There are also godly entities created by mankind (and yes, I know, this is skipping around the questions; sorry) who rely on the energy offerings of their followers to survive. And finally, there are ancient entities that are gods not to feed on the energies of their followers, but rather for reasons of politics (to have power).

The first two, yes... The last ones, not so much, though they can draw on the offerings of their followers to enhance their own powers.

This is why I usually try to call that which I follow "Creator" as opposed to "God"... "God" implies a great deal of limitations that I don't believe are there. What I follow is more along the lines of the idea of the "Tao"... An entire dimension of energy in and of itself; an entity that is undefinable by our terms...undefinable as singular or plural, as masculine or feminine, as anything other than simply "Creator". I believe it was this voice that Abraham heard speak when he heard "I am"; I believe it was this entity that Jesus aspired to follow. After all, Creator is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent; if It was limited to a humanoid form, or even to a masculine gender, how could it be all of those things? Thus the Bible says of Creator, Taoism tends to agree, and even the field of Quantum Physics is pointing us in that direction.

So, to summarize and answer, most deific entities do use their followers' prayer to feed on or use their followers' energy, some do not, and Creator has no need.

2. Would a kind and goodly diety(ies) send a good being to eternal suffering, merely for not beliving a particular teaching?

Absolutely not. The idea of Hell is briefly touched on in the Bible as being the prison of Lucifer, the Fallen Angels, and the False Gods. The idea of men being damned to Hell for eternity was, so far as I'm concerned, an invention entirely of the church, to scare people into agreeing with them.

At no point does Christ actually ever say that not following him in name will damn a person. At no point does he ever say that anything bad will happen to a person who isn't a Christian in name. All he says is his "I am way/truth/light", and when he said that, he was speaking in Greek...which has no definite articles. There is a word which basically translates out to "a/the" (completely indefinite), and the word that translates out to "noone" is more accurately translated as "none of you"...and I still say that his use of the phrase "I am" is more about Creator (i.e. love) than himself...so "Love is the way, truth, and light. [I'm going to be dying soon, so] none of you will reach the kingdom of Heaven save through me." The Disciples had no further opportunity to learn of Creator, and Christ knew that...

The line was to remind them that his disciples already knew the way and already followed it. It doesn't sync with anything else Jesus ever said for him to use that line to damn millions of people to Hell in a single breath. (Or even Purgatory.)

3. Is it possible that the higher power(s) are actually creations of mankind, created and given power by the dreams and beliefs of our species as a whole?

Alright, sorry, already answered that one...

4. Why is it that evil seems to attract ruthlessly powerfull morons in general, while goodness tends to attract people of more limited means who approach the conflict more intelligently?

Can you rephrase the question, Li-sensei, without using "evil" or "good"...? As Ghostspider said, it really is pointless to try and define the universe by such terms... They're highly subjective.

If, however, you mean to ask why so many kind-hearted and altruistic individuals are intelligent and why so many cruel people are fools...in my experience, it is usually the other way around. We are the few, and we seem to attract the few...

5. Why is it that religions that preach peace, and the striving of good to overcome evil seem to automaticly consider other religions with exceptionally similar teachings (sometimes even as far as following the same path in slightly different ways) to be evil?

I'm guessing you're mainly referring to the Judeo-Christian-Islamic traditions, though the same could be asked of quite a few pagan groups; I'm guessing even eastern religions aren't wholly spared of this problem, though I'm also supposing that since we don't hear of it as much in the Taoist/Confucianist/Buddhist societies of the east, they either have more peaceful ways to resolve the problem, or the problem just isn't as prevalant...

A lot of the problems start with fundamentalists from each side holding trivialities as important fundamentals of their faiths. When those "fundamentals" don't hold true with the "opposing" viewpoints, they become upset and irate, and start declaring that viewpoint as "evil", or rather, just counter to theirs.

In the case of the JCI traditions, Jesus is the main point of controversy... Rather than recognizing the core is the same in each tradition, that the focus of all of their prophets was peace, love, and goodwill, they all criticize each other over the importance of one man. The Jewish viewpoint is, at best, he was a prophet for Christians, and at worst, was completely unimportant, or didn't exist at all. The Muslims recognize him as the greatest of all prophets, but believe neither that he was the Messiah, nor that he was crucified (rather, Allah/"God" made another man in Jesus' likeness, and Pilate crucified *him* instead). Christians tend to take offense to both views, and rather than act on Christ's teachings, they--well...history does tend to speak for itself. Judaism and Islam haven't exactly been known in history for spreading the love and peace that their faiths preach, either...

As long as men are imperfect and mortal, these problems will persist. It's a sad fact of being mortal; we have a driving desire to be right, and this terrible notion that we can't be right unless someone else is wrong.

6. If the diety(ies) are good, why do they allow suffering and pain in the world while evil has no qualms with taking a physical interest in enforcement of their wills?

Again, it's pointless to think in terms of "good" and "evil"...so I'm going to assume that by "good", you mean "loving, caring, and nurturing".

Pretty much every western religion (JCI-based and otherwise) that has survived into this era views their deities as parental figures, so it is from this vantage that I'll approach your question. If a parent loves their child, why would they allow their child to risk hurting themselves? To be more precise, why would a parent allow their child to risk falling when trying to learn to walk, or burn their hands on a stove? Is it for lack of love that a parent would allow two children to "fight it out"?

No, absolutely not. Through pain, we have it ingrained very quickly that fire is hot and burns. Through trial, error, difficulty, pain and tears, we finally learn to walk, and learn to triumph through difficulty. Through the suffering of fighting, we learn that we can accomplish nothing, and that in the end, it is better to love our brothers and sisters than to constantly fight and bicker.

And so we have suffering in the world so our spirits can likewise learn of dangers, triumphs, and to love in spite of anger and hurt feelings.

7. Is there room on earth for goodly men of widely differing views to co-exist regardless of their religions?

There's that "g" word again...but to paraphrase what I said earlier, if people would just get over their differences and look to how their beliefs are similar, they'd see there's plenty of room.

Fortunately, there is still hope for our race... Those who are the most vocal, those who most loudly preach that Jesus or "God" hates whoever is pissing them off at this moment...those people are, in fact, in a surprising minority. The vast majority of people who follow Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are, in fact, decent or wonderful people who try to follow the core of their faith's teachings. We may slip at times, but tying back again, if we don't slip, we can't learn to walk with stronger strides, and grow from our mistakes.

We just need to learn not to stay down when we fall.

...

For any of you brave, dedicated, and masochistic souls who read this entire thing, thank you for your time.

This is in my experience, one of the most awe inspireing conversations on this topic I have seen. Every responce has been a well reasoned arguement, or a simple declaration of personal belief (which given the topic is both understandable and desired) and no one has resorted to the attacks on the beliefs of others which is so prevalent in such a discourse.

For those that dislike my use of good and evil, they are a little more open to personal interpratation than other words I would have chosen - that and this is how the thoughts of this were translated to english for me.

Please continue posting on this topic, I am having to think in new ways in order to try to understand many of these posts, which is why I opened the topic in the first place. Perhaps when I figure out how best to put them to words I will post my own personal views.

Some pick religion.

Some pick science.

Some just don't give a shit.

That last one, that would be me.

I still like to think that science and religion aren't mutually exclusive...