Is that so?

[Shang Li]

The Zen master Hakuin was praised by his neighbours as one living a pure life.

A beautiful Japanese girl whose parents owned a food store lived near him. Suddenly, without any warning, her parents discovered she was with child.

This made her parents angry. She would not confess who the man was, but after much harassment at last named Hakuin.

In great anger the parent went to the master. "Is that so?" was all he would say.

After the child was born it was brought to Hakuin. By this time he had lost his reputation, which did not trouble him, but he took very good care of the child. He obtained milk from his neighbours and everything else he needed.

A year later the girl-mother could stand it no longer. She told her parents the truth - the real father of the child was a young man who worked in the fishmarket.

The mother and father of the girl at once went to Hakuin to ask forgiveness, to apologize at length, and to get the child back.

Hakuin was willing. In yielding the child, all he said was: "Is that so?"

[Ron Caliburn]

I'm assuming there is supposed to be a lesson here . . . all I got was that some old feller don't care to share the truth.

[Shadowstalker]

I get the feeling it has to do with the idea of, if he had wasted effort to argue the point it would have fallen on deaf ears, so he waited for things to staighten themself out and he merely acted as the childs guardian till it was.
Just my take on it.

[Gothicfox]

There's fate and there's fate. I like the Jei Li movie Tai Chi, when he learned how to let fate stand and how to take a stand against fate.

[Ron Caliburn]

Sounds like he has decided that the folks are not worthy of discussing things with to me.

[Kolya]

Huh?

[Celeste Darken]

Three words come to mind when I read this: is that so?

[Kolya]

Huh is shorthand for that, maybe... I'm not real sure.

[Celeste Darken]

What I find so fascinating about the story is how many layers there are to it . . . I can see several different interpretations.

[Ron Caliburn]

The tone seems condescending to me, like saying "You are not worthy to hear my opnions on the matter so I will not share them."

[Bert_the_Turtle]

He never said Yes or No. He did the worst thing one human being can do to another: He asked them to think.

[Kolya]

He never said Yes or No. He did the worst thing one human being can do to another: He asked them to think.

That's the worst thing, eh?

You are so cruel.

[Bert_the_Turtle]

If you haven't noticed, people don't want to think. They don't like to think. They don't want to challenge their preconceived notions of how things are. People will fight to death over a belief with nothing backing it up.

[Kolya]

What was in that old lady's food?

[Ron Caliburn]

He never said Yes or No. He did the worst thing one human being can do to another: He asked them to think.

I don't even think he really asked them anything, he just made casual convorsation and otherwise ignored them.

[Bert_the_Turtle]

I don't know. Ben and Molly and I had dinner at a Chinese Restaurant last night. I think I may have accidentally swallowed the fortune out of my cookie.

[Celeste Darken]

The tone seems condescending to me, like saying "You are not worthy to hear my opnions on the matter so I will not share them."

Not necessarily. On one level, what if Hakuin thought he was guilty? He might have taken the girl too, while the fisherman was glad to not be implicated. But later, the girl-mother might have discovered the math did not add up, and confessed what she now knew to be the truth.

On another level, what if the Zen Master knew that the fisherman would not have the means or the capability to take care of the child, and so took it in order to save it from death. Once he knew the fisherman was financially secure, and perhaps mature enough to shoulder the responsibility, he returned the child.

[Ron Caliburn]

So the old master though he might have been the father of an illigitmate child?

You accusing Shang of something here?

Just kidding.

[Shang Li]

although there is no right or wrong answer to the Koan (they are made to cause you to ponder things you otherwise would not) I have 3 basic interpretations that cross my mind.

1. The monk does not feel it is his place to intrude on the parent's lives, so he takes responsability for the child. (someone has to and the parents are obviously not ready)

2. Zen is about action, not words. Rather than trying to straighten out this mysterious gift, the monk cares for the child, as this is what needs done now.

3. The old monk was like my own master, and never wanted to give an answer, just more questions. (Master Tendai was the absolute worst about that)

But remember those are just my opinions and thoughts from when the Koan was first given to me. Come back and read it again in a month, do you think your view will be the same?


Mr. Caliburn, I do not think Ms. Darken is any longer capable of birth (a pity too, you should see her with children), and if such a child were to be handed to me, I would have to say to you - Is that so?

[Ron Caliburn]

Mr. Caliburn, I do not think Ms. Darken is any longer capable of birth (a pity too, you should see her with children), and if such a child were to be handed to me, I would have to say to you - Is that so?

Okay Shang, now you realy have me lost, are you implying that something is happening between Celeste and I or are you just enjoying your herbal tea too much?

[Bert_the_Turtle]

If I'm reading it right, he's saying:

Its a shame that Cee (in all likelihood) can't bear children anymore because she's wonderful with them.

And as a seperate thought says that if a child like the one related in this thought exercise were handed to him, all he could say to you is "Is that so?"

[Ron Caliburn]

Except he seems to specify I would bring him such a child.

[Shadowstalker]

Sounds about right to me also Bert. Hmm howmany Fortune cookies did you eat?

[Bert_the_Turtle]

I only had one. Molly charmed the rest out of me haha.

[Ron Caliburn]

I don't know what it is, but usually when I go out for Chinese, when I bother to open the fortune cookie, it's empty.

[Kolya]

As in there is no strip of paper or there is nothing on the paper or what is on the paper is empty (as in, "you should look where you normally don't")?

[Ron Caliburn]

No strip of paper.

Happens more often than not.

[Kolya]

Strange.

[Ron Caliburn]

Yeah, I know.

[Bert_the_Turtle]

That's Very strange!