What's in a holy symbol?

[Natasha]

I have to energise wards, not runes. I kind of talked about in the same breath and confused things maybe. Some runes and symbols are energised all by themselfs.

Negas can affect things, well, negatively, of course, but some things do transcend belief.

As about swastika it may be that this symbol is nothing by itself. The Hindus use it the Nazis use it, but is there evidence their belief makes it do anything whatsoever? The cross part of a swastika or even an ankh should repel and damage vampires.

A vampire seems to be immune to a cross, but it actually it isn't. It's just fighting through, perhaps inspired by belief, but it's not the belief itself.

Most holy and religious symbols are not self-energising. It just happens that the cross is the most important religious symbol of Christianity. Over the centuries the connection has been made and solidified.

Whether the Sea of Galilee or Lake Michigan, a vampire won't go swimming. Although presumably at some point a priest strolling down Lakeshore may have said a prayer for the sailors on the lake and blessed the water. We can't know that. But I think it doesn't matter. It's the water's nature itself.

[Eilonwy Solstice]

Hmm but is there such a thing as an Atheistic Vampire? I am being kind of serious here. What would turning into a vampire do to your views about reality?

I see atheism as a possible escape tactic... "If there were a loving higher power, this wouldn't've happened to me, and I wouldn't be getting controlled by this guy."

Alter them, of course. It’s a “conversion” of sorts, after all. But I don’t think it’s so much as beliefs and desires for a vampire as it is a separation of conscience and responsibility for the welfare of anybody or anything. Temptation becomes the ultimate decision-maker, because there is no reason not to give in to it for a vampire. To have no bars on the why you can give in to lust, anger, malice, and hate without feeling anything beyond a twisted sense of pleasure is a scary thing. It’s not “I hate God and all the good that He represents” so much as “I don’t give a damn one way or the other.” Vampires are very pragmatic in that regard, because God cannot be verified one way or the other. They see a barrier, they either try to get around it or ignore it completely. They don’t care for philosophy except to twist to make victims squirm.

[concrete_Angel]

So you're saying that vampires are the ultimate indulgence, and anything that would inherently represent temperance or restraint would be seen as something to avoid?

[Sasha]

If it's in the scorpion's nature to sting, it's in the vampire's nature to indulge. It's not a conscious thing.

Yet what do I know except that not all vampires are created equal.

[GhostSpider]

You know, maybe you should be more specific when you say "vampire". You sound like your lumping all into one grouping. There are others, though who or how many i'm not sure, that are not like the blood-sucking vermin we usually deal with. I'm not saying they're good, all vampires are predators after all, but that doesn't necesarily make them evil. For some, like me, the feeding is almost a totally subconcious activity.

I'm not sure where i'm going with this.

[A. Pendragon]

You know, maybe you should be more specific when you say "vampire". You sound like your lumping all into one grouping. There are others, though who or how many i'm not sure, that are not like the blood-sucking vermin we usually deal with. I'm not saying they're good, all vampires are predators after all, but that doesn't necesarily make them evil. For some, like me, the feeding is almost a totally subconcious activity.

I'm not sure where i'm going with this.

well let us put you out of your misery. I would be more then willing to do the deed.

[KonThaak]

Konrad, when we're talking about vampires, we're making generalizations.

All generalizations are false, including this one...

Don't be so quick to take offense to it. It's pretty generally understood that if we say "vampire" and just leave it at that, we're talking about the undead assholes that drink blood and enjoy hurting others and whatnot.

If we were talking about a different kind, we'd specifically say "energy vampire" or "emotion vampire" or whatever. (I've heard there are "astral vampires", too, but I don't know too much about those...)

Andrew: Are you feeling okay? You're starting to sound kind of obsessive... While I understand that everything you've gone through of late is more than a little stressful, you don't post anymore unless it has something to do with Konrad. Are you okay?

[A. Pendragon]

Vampires, demons, etc... all need to be put down. I have tried in the past making friends with some. I even tried to be gabe's friend, what did it get me? He came after me. He tried to kill me. Fucker didnt even have the balls to do it himself. He sic'd his strigoi on me.

The only good vampires is a staked and beheaded vampire.
And no I am not making a generalization. I am speaking of all fucking vamp's.

[concrete_Angel]

I think that whole Gabe thing was already explained, but hey, what do I know?

As for GS, maybe if he'd stop being such a dick towards everyone, then we'd all chill out a little more. Wadda ya say?

[KonThaak]

Andrew, can I bring Gabe over sometime within the next few days...?

[GhostSpider]

I already forsee the answer to that one.

[Gabriel]

I'm already dead; there's not much else he can do to me.

[concrete_Angel]

Ah, but isn't the BELIEF more important than the real thing? Is it possible that his belief that he'll extract revenge could be overshadowing his actual reasoning about how or what he'd be taking revenge FOR? They say belief is strong, but you can never really know how strong until you have one.

[A. Pendragon]

Andrew, can I bring Gabe over sometime within the next few days...?

Why? And in what form?

[KonThaak]

Why?

Because we need to talk.

And in what form?

I'm not entirely sure I know what you're asking here, so I'm gonna try and answer as many ways as I can figure... First, most literally, I'll be in my human form, unarmed, and Gabe will be as he is--a spirit, tied to my crystal ball... Second, we'll be coming with peaceful intentions... We need to clear up this misunderstanding you have that Gabe tried to kill you. I know you have some psychic abilities; maybe if you talk to him in person, you'll be able to figure out the truth for yourself.

Gabriel's in no position to be capable of hurting much of anyone right now, unless they're astral, spiritual in nature, or otherwise incorporeal... Since that in no way describes you, you're safe from him. Windner is dead; Gabe doesn't have Windner's cronies, either, since you seem to think they were under Gabe's command.

We just want to talk...

[A. Pendragon]

Why?

Because we need to talk.

And in what form?

I'm not entirely sure I know what you're asking here, so I'm gonna try and answer as many ways as I can figure... First, most literally, I'll be in my human form, unarmed, and Gabe will be as he is--a spirit, tied to my crystal ball... Second, we'll be coming with peaceful intentions... We need to clear up this misunderstanding you have that Gabe tried to kill you. I know you have some psychic abilities; maybe if you talk to him in person, you'll be able to figure out the truth for yourself.

Gabriel's in no position to be capable of hurting much of anyone right now, unless they're astral, spiritual in nature, or otherwise incorporeal... Since that in no way describes you, you're safe from him. Windner is dead; Gabe doesn't have Windner's cronies, either, since you seem to think they were under Gabe's command.

We just want to talk...

Fine. This saturday. Around 2pm.

[GhostSpider]

So, I guess there is ice water in hell now.

[A. Pendragon]

So, I guess there is ice water in hell now.

Atleast gabriel is making the effort of wanting to explain what is going on, what happened etc... From seeing responses from others on this board toward gabe and his explanations to recent events, I am willing to trust KT on this. Besides, they are coming to my place. They wont have the benefit of home court advantage.

[KonThaak]

Fine. This saturday. Around 2pm.

We'll be there...and thank you.

[Kolya]

Bring your holy symbols.

[KonThaak]

Planned on it...or were you talking to Andrew?

[A. Pendragon]

My Holy Symbols? Plenty of explosives, C4 and other misc "toys". Gabe makes one wrong move or chant and all 3 of us will be itsy bitsy pieces.

[Gabriel]

I'm already dead. Doing that would just cause you and Josh to join me.

Besides, I'm not doing this because I fear retribution... I'm doing this to prove my innocence, to the best of my abilities. I'm doing this because I respect you still, even if you've changed after your run-in with Malakai.

You're still a decent person. It's just that lately, you're rather more paranoid than you used to be.

[A. Pendragon]

I'm already dead. Doing that would just cause you and Josh to join me.

Besides, I'm not doing this because I fear retribution... I'm doing this to prove my innocence, to the best of my abilities. I'm doing this because I respect you still, even if you've changed after your run-in with Malakai.

You're still a decent person. It's just that lately, you're rather more paranoid than you used to be.

My respect for KT is what is giving you a chance to prove your innocence.

[Ethan Skinner]

I was thinking of bringing this thread up again.

We could use a list of holy symbols, specially against vampires. Outlaw's last post was about vampires.

And I don't like it when people go silent after that, cuz its not a good sign.

[Logan]

I found a seal of solomon cut out of the tip of a high calibre semi-wadcutter to work nicely (still not sure why, the expansion qualities in ordinance gelitin was somewhat dissapointing) The pencilneck that turned me on to it said some mumbo jumbo about lots of things being vulnerable to to the energy carried by the smbolism more than the round it's self.

[Chen Lung]

I found a seal of solomon cut out of the tip of a high calibre semi-wadcutter to work nicely (still not sure why, the expansion qualities in ordinance gelitin was somewhat dissapointing) The pencilneck that turned me on to it said some mumbo jumbo about lots of things being vulnerable to to the energy carried by the smbolism more than the round it's self.

If these bullets worked at all you were lucky; you ran into the right kind of vampire. The expansion of the round along with the impact would have mis-shapened the symbol enough that it would have been unrecognizible. I have had many run-ins with "Vampires" over the centuries and they are all different in all parts of the world. Each has a different weakness; each has a different method of draining the life from its victims.

The point here is: Vampires are all weakened or killed, depending on the part of the world in which they are found, by the use of Apotropaics.

Apotrope (adj.: apotropaic) refers to objects such as amulets and talismans or other symbols intended to "ward off evil" or "avert or combat evil."

The word is of Greek origin (αποτρέπω) and literally means "turning away" which was seen in the apotropaic eye, an exaggerated eye painted on drinking vessels in the 6th century BC to ward away spirits while drinking. Curiously, eyes were often painted to ward off the evil eye. The word is also used in vampire fiction and folklore in reference to symbols such as crucifixes, the Holy Sacraments, silver bullets, wild roses and garlic that can ward away or destroy vampires. The Yiddish expression, "Kain ein horeh" (קיין עין הרע) is apotropaic in nature, and literally translates to "no evil eye," somewhat equivalent to the expression, "Knock on wood."

Because of the shared meaning, an "apotropaic amulet" would be redundant; rather, an apotropaic symbol can be an amulet.

They are sacred or mundane items that ward off evil. Garlic or holy water are common. The items vary from region to region -- a branch of wild rose and hawthorn plant harm vampires. In Europe, sprinkling mustard seeds on the roof of a house is said to keep them away. Other apotropaics include sacred items, for example a crucifix, rosary, or holy water. Vampires are unable to walk on consecrated ground, such as those of churches or temples, or cross running water.

Although not traditionally regarded as an apotropaic, mirrors have been used to ward off vampires when placed facing outwards on a door (vampires do not have a reflection and in some cultures, do not cast shadows, perhaps as a manifestation of the vampire's lack of a soul). Although this attribute is not universal (the Greek vrykolakas/tympanios was capable of both reflection and shadow). Some traditions also hold that a vampire cannot enter a house unless invited by the owner, although after the first invitation they can come and go as they please. Though vampires are believed to be more active at night, they are not universally vulnerable to sunlight.

Methods of destroying suspected vampires varies, with staking the most common method, particularly in southern Slavic cultures. Ash is the preferred wood in Russia and the Baltic states, or hawthorn in Serbia, with oak in Silesia. Potential vampires are most often staked though the heart, though the mouth is targeted in Russia and northern Germany and the stomach in northeastern Serbia. Piercing the skin of the chest is a way of "deflating" the bloated vampire; this is similar to the act of burying sharp objects, such as sickles, in with the corpse, so that they may penetrate the skin if the body bloats sufficiently while transforming into a revenant.

Decapitation is the preferred method in German and western Slavic areas, with the head buried between the feet, behind the buttocks or away from the body. This act is seen as a way of hastening the departure of the soul, which in some cultures, is said to linger in the corpse. The vampire's head, body, or clothes can also be spiked and pinned to the earth to prevent rising. Gypsies drive steel or iron needles into a corpse's heart and placed bits of steel in the mouth, over the eyes, ears and between the fingers at the time of burial. They also place hawthorn in the corpse's sock or drive a hawthorn stake through the legs. Further measures include pouring boiling water over the grave or complete incineration of the body. In the Balkans a vampire can also be killed by being shot or drowned, by repeating the funeral service, by sprinkling holy water on the body, or by exorcism. In Romania garlic can be placed in the mouth, and as recently as the 19th century, the precaution of shooting a bullet through the coffin was taken. For resistant cases, the body is dismembered and the pieces burned, mixed with water, and administered to family members as a cure. In Saxon regions of Germany, a lemon is placed in the mouth of suspected vampires.

So, it has nothing to do with the holiness of the symbol. Due to the randomness of the apotropaic in question, it must be assumed that the culture and beliefs of the vampire prior to its unbirth has more to do with what will stop it than anything else. Unfortunately, this means that should some evil SOB find a way to transport these demons to different parts of the world, all of us will be looking for new and ingenius manners of killing them. So read up!

As for what makes a "Holy Symbol": I knew a man in England during the 19th Century who prayed to his god by using his Mauser as his totem. He was able to call on his god during peace or combat without issue. His Mauser was a holy symbol; for him it represented his link to his god. For me my "Holy Symbol" (for lack of a better term) is the power in my fists, when it comes I am a true vessel of the Way. But even I am powerless against certain types of vampire.

But still... we all fight on, right?