Besides, there's still a difference between what the church does, and what people do. The church can organize functions to raise money for the community, or can rally together to voice their opinion against what they feel is wrong. Individuals decide to take their faith into their own hands, and play God. If you can't understand the word of God enough to know that His message is one of love, then you're not really speaking for the church that's trying to teach that message.

concrete_Angel wrote:Yeah, you know, I'm not buying that bull, DK. I said you only see what you want to see. Personally, I've never seen people turned away from a church, I've GONE to churches where they'll just go ahead and let me pray, no matter WHAT I was wearing, and I know for a fact that the priests that are committing criminal acts are the VERY minority, especially since the news doesn't exactly cover a story about a priest that does a good job, is liked by his followers, and spends his life teaching that God is forgiving and loving.

And also, if you've got a problem with people using God's name for their own selfish purposes, get pissed off at them, not God. He didn't tell people to do that, it's their own stupid idea.

I thought that is what I attempted to explain my feelings are. For the sake of discussion I will try to make it clearer for you. My anger at God is a selfish one. It is not anything God did, but what God allowed me to do. As someone else brought up, we are given freewill by God and as such are allowed to freely condemn ourselves to eternal death.

There is no real logic about my anger at Him and deep down I know the simple fact is who am I to tell the creator of all how He should run things. Perhaps you can say my anger is at the realization of how tiny I am in the presence of something so big. My anger comes from my knowing what needs to be done but my inability to do so. The requirement itself is what angers me because I am too prideful to do it, even though deep down I know how simple it is. So when I am saying I am angry at God, you can read it that I am angry with myself for not being able to accept the simplicity of the redemption He offers.

Now that said, I am also sick of what mankind has done with the message given. Perhaps it would have been better to say go to church in rags while you have a friend show up in a million-dollar suit. There will be surface pleasantries given to you, but the attention will be on the million-dollar suit. See because like it or not, churches and the members of churches still put more value in worldly matters than spiritual ones.

If you need something or someone else with a more credible recored to point it out, then go look into the history of how The Salvation Army was started (it is more than a social service), or listen to A.W. Tozier's thoughts on the subject because he puts it so much better than I ever will.

Now instead of everyone who believes arguing the meaning of what I said, just answer my next few questions. Why do Christians today never talk about Heaven when that was all that early Christians thought about? Or even better why is it that the average Christian cannot tell you what heaven really is? Why is it that Christians that are supposed to have eternal happiness are just as miserable as everyone else?

My anger towards God is a selfish thing, but my anger towards the church is justified.

Ron Caliburn wrote:We are responisble for ourselves and our actions and if the world will be better it's up to us to do it.

Hey, that's what I said.

I thought so, too, so I pointed it out.

DarKnyht wrote:Now instead of everyone who believes arguing the meaning of what I said, just answer my next few questions. Why do Christians today never talk about Heaven when that was all that early Christians thought about? Or even better why is it that the average Christian cannot tell you what heaven really is? Why is it that Christians that are supposed to have eternal happiness are just as miserable as everyone else?

My anger towards God is a selfish thing, but my anger towards the church is justified.

Actually, from your explanation, it sounds more like you're angry at God because you're not perfect, and you can screw up your life. But, that aside:

Christians today DO still talk about Heaven.
The average Christian doesn't know what Heaven's like because they haven't DIED!!
And the eternal happiness happens once you're free of the shit this world dumps on you. It's kind of like a spiritual Brita filter. Once you go through it, the unpleasant pieces are filtered away, and that's the eternal happiness left over.

Oh, and Will wants me to tell you that originally, the reason God got pissed off and destroyed so much of the world was that He was tired of people trying to tell Him how to do things. It's a little like the bolts on a car telling the whole car how to get to Phoenix. (Whatever that's supposed to mean)

Yes, you are right that it is a self inflicted anger. But it is easier to call it anger at God than to admit it for what it is. Shallow, but true. It is amazing how much of our lives are propped up by lies we tell ourselves. I am getting closer to letting it go and moving past it.

I notice that you cannot answer my question about what heaven is, only tell me that it is talked about. Saying that you will go to heaven when you die is talking about it, but is not explaining the inheritance you are supposed to have by being saved. Saying there is no pain in heaven and eternal happiness is fine, but you never are told why. I'll give you a clue and tell you that Heaven is not a place where you will be disembodied spirit or someone on clouds with wings, yet that is what most Christians think of when they speak of heaven.

Most Christians have find no joy in thinking about heaven, because they are still looking for joy here in this world. The church keeps talking about this joy we are supposed to feel, yet it is never there for most Christians.

Here I will give you the typical path of a Christian after their being saved:

In the weeks and months after being saved they notice a discrepancy between your enthusiasm and those around them (other church members that is). Those who have been Christians didn't seem to share their youthful joy for eternity, in fact they are put off by it or even embarrassed. They rarely talk about the promise of eternity that originally brought them to the faith but instead talk about other promises. Promises of a fulfilled life here on earth, a great marriage, good health, promises of blessings and wealth if one was only a good steward with it, all good things of course.

But they can't help but notice a difference between the message of the cross whispered by the spirit and the one that came every Sunday from the seasoned saints. No one suggested that they became a Christian to earn money. No one claimed that their business would thrive if they followed Jesus. No one cried health, wealth and success to attract them to the faith. And if they did then they birthed them into a faith inconsistent with faith in Christ.

Jesus didn't come to save our bank accounts, he came to save our souls. As the months rolled by their own enthusiasm begins to fade. They notice something else, the Christians around them are generally no more successful than the non-Christians they knew. In fact perhaps less. The most active office in the church is the counselling office. Divorce is as common around Christians as those from other faiths. Financial hardship runs rampant, despite messages of success if they tithe. Worse still most Christians talk non-stop about their struggles, and characterize them as attacks from the enemy. They never seem to gain victory, at least not one that lasts a week or so.

The more they struggle to be happy the more they fail to do so, and the more energy they put into finding the key to happiness. So many sermons just follow a predictable template that looks something like this:

"Yes, yes I know you are not there yet, but if you will just follow these 5 points that start with R your marriage, jobs, relationships and everything else in your life will improve. Rejuvenate, Restore, Remotivate, Reanimate, and Regurgitate."

The bookstores overflow with Christian books that deal with every hardship we face this side of death including death itself. How to live a fantastically life by following steps, how to heal the marriage, fix the kids, and save money. All the things that lead to success and well-being. These are important subjects deserving thought, but in the end the new Christian can't help noticing that they really don't make a Christian that much happier.

Despite having heard hundreds of sermons on how to employ God's power to have a happy marriage, their marriages were no more successful than Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, or Mormons. These are the lost who don't have the benefit of the treasures afforded the Christians. Why?

All this eventually causes them to do the same as the older Christians. They stop talking about their conversion. Not because they forgot about it, but because it lost the luster it once had. They begin to seek the earthly blessings from God that consumed other Christians' thoughts. They become no longer content to rest on the inheritance of eternity that once awed them. Their new and living hope for eternity begins to slip into a slumber.

So again if this happens to most Christians, why does the church continue to do what it does? Why do Christians allow this to happen and let themselves miss what was truly intended?

I do not believe I have the capacity of words to explain properly what I am begining to understand Heaven to be, but I will try.

In facts, Heaven is where God is. The Heaven Chrstians are to look forward to is when God comes back to earth and puts things right. This will mean that the curse of original sin will be lifted from it and it will once again be as God originally intended it to be. It means that I will be reborn into an enternal body instead of the dying one I am in now, because if I believe and am saved through the blood of Christ I will pardorned from the price of the curse of sin by His sacrifice on the cross.

In thoughts, Heaven is where the best of life is. Think of your best moment in life and imagine it to the extreme. Think of when you were a kid and the anticipation you had for Christmas, that is how you should feel towards heaven if you are saved. Think of how it felt when you got the present you wanted, when your child was born, or the joy of your wedding day. Those are but foreshadows of what is to come in heaven.

It is this that Christians are supposed to be hoping and yearning for. Everything else is just a preview of what is to come. The joys of here and now pale to that is to come in the New Earth (which is the same place as New Heaven since God will put His throne in New Jerusalem). Everything that the apostles wrote points to this fact, and it is this fact that Christians today ignore.

Paul wrote, "Set your mind on the things above, and not the things of this world." and Peter wrote, " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who in his great mercy gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you
who by the power of God are safeguarded through faith, to a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the final time." Both are speaking of the hope of heaven that Christians are supposed to be obsessed with. That is just two examples, the New Testiment is filled with such statements. Heaven was what they were longing for, not for the things of this world.

I don't know if that answers your question, but it is the point I am at in my journey. I don't really have the perfect answer. I just know that by large the Church has fallen asleep to the true message Christ brought.

First, you never said if that's what YOU believe, or if that's just what Christians believe.

I'll let Will take the second point. (Secretary time!!)

"My good sir, If I may, I believe I've had a touch more experience in this matter, and wish to enlighten you upon matters you seem to be contemplating. Heaven itself, although biblically stated as a physical place, is more of a spiritual incentive for the living to look beyond what is currently encasing you. No true church should be entered with the concept of material fundamentalism, and to embrace a faith merely as a means of a better life is a common misconception. All religions operate under the principle that what exists in life is fleeting, and merely the beginning of an endless journey. There is so much beyond your life, some unsettling, some extra ordinary, but you must be willing to remove yourself. No church may deliver a soul to eternity if the soul is only there in hopes of gaining an automobile, or some such frivolities. Although money makes living easier for a time, a soul that is blessed with an untainted faith and unconcerned for material benefits is truly the one at peace. "

(Whatever. You don't exactly look like you're glowing with angel wings yourself, pal!)

concrete_Angel wrote:First, you never said if that's what YOU believe, or if that's just what Christians believe.

I'll let Will take the second point. (Secretary time!!)

"My good sir, If I may, I believe I've had a touch more experience in this matter, and wish to enlighten you upon matters you seem to be contemplating. Heaven itself, although biblically stated as a physical place, is more of a spiritual incentive for the living to look beyond what is currently encasing you. No true church should be entered with the concept of material fundamentalism, and to embrace a faith merely as a means of a better life is a common misconception. All religions operate under the principle that what exists in life is fleeting, and merely the beginning of an endless journey. There is so much beyond your life, some unsettling, some extra ordinary, but you must be willing to remove yourself. No church may deliver a soul to eternity if the soul is only there in hopes of gaining an automobile, or some such frivolities. Although money makes living easier for a time, a soul that is blessed with an untainted faith and unconcerned for material benefits is truly the one at peace. "

(Whatever. You don't exactly look like you're glowing with angel wings yourself, pal!)

I suggest that you re-read what I wrote again. What I believe heaven to be is what I described above in facts and feelings. What followed that was just a sampling of what led me to that conclusion. If you would like I can point out all the individual scriptures that led me to the conclusion above, but that would be a long and boring process.

As for Will, thank him for restating most of what I said earlier about what the faith is supposed to be about. However, I do not believe I can agree with him on the fact that Heaven is only a spiritual place. When Christ rose from the dead He had a physical body and was not just a spirit. The gospels are quite clear on this.

The New Testiment writings state also this, "The Lord Jesus Christ.... will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." (Philippians 3:20-21) "Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2) And Finally, "And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven." (1 Corinthians 15:49)

Furthermore, it is quite specific on the fact that we will not just be disembodied spirits in Heaven. I will quote Paul again on this matter, "The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power, it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15:42-44). When he says spiritual body, spiritual is just an adjective of body (which means flesh and blood). If he meant spirit he would have said "it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spirit."

When Paul says "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." he is referring to our bodies as they are now: cursed and under sin. Our present bodies are fallen and destructible, but our future bodies - though bodies in the fullest sense - will be untouched by sin and indestructible. They will be like Christ's resurrection body, physical and indestructible.

Now, I will admit that I might not be clear on all the details of heaven from Christianity's viewpoint, but I am sure of this one fact. It clearly states that we will have a physical and eternal body in New Heaven.

Yea I always give someone a chance to prove themselves unworthy of my respect.

You know what? You'll just find out if you get there, pal. Until then, if you spend your time focusing on the negative, then you deserve to miss any of the good stuff. Case closed.

concrete_Angel wrote:You know what? You'll just find out if you get there, pal. Until then, if you spend your time focusing on the negative, then you deserve to miss any of the good stuff. Case closed.

You talking to me, angel?

You know, there ARE more than just the two of you on this site, remember?

I don't like all this cryptic talk going on.

Ron Caliburn wrote:See Sue, you're confusing the Russians.

You have no idea. Trust me.

Anyone check her for possession recently?

I'm about to have myself checked out for possession.

On the subject of churches and their openness and acceptingness: My mother-in-law works at the same casino my wife does. She has worked there for quite a few years, now. My father-in-law is a carpenter. They have stories of the church they used to attend, long before I met them. The parishioners would amicably greet and chat with my father-in-law, and pretend that my mother-in-law didn't exist. If they had to say anything to her, they were curt. When questioned why, they would scornfully say that she worked in a house of sin. Keep in mind, even *if* one considers gambling to be a sin, my mother-in-law has never once forced anyone into the casino, stapled their ass to a chair, held a gun to their head, and threatened their lives if they didn't double down. For her, it was a job, a job that paid/pays rather well, so she could help support her family, but they treated her like a horrible person for doing what she did. I'm sorry, Angel, in a perfect world, I'd say you're absolutely right, but DK raises some valid points, even if I disagree with him on some points, too.

I haven't attended a church service since I was 12 years old. I was more or less expelled; my parents pulled my brothers and I out of church, because all the churches we attended were of the hellfire-and-brimstone variety. My parents didn't want us to learn about God's love through mankind's twisting of the Bible, so we stopped attending. For my younger brothers, I think it was easier at that time; they were young enough that noone really bothered them, but my friends started saying that my parents would go to Hell for that decision, and they were bringing my brothers and me down with them. They were so certain of this that I became torn; part of me wanted to believe them because they were so certain, but another part of me wanted to believe in my parents, that they wouldn't willingly condemn my brothers and I to Hell along with them.

It took two years for me to be able to think the word "gods" (plural) without immediately being afraid of being struck by lightning, for thinking of gods in the plural sense was blasphemy in my ignorant mind, and so was this nagging feeling that it was God's fault that my brothers and I would be going to Hell. Finally, I grew enough through my fear of my position to start trying to understand... I began to change my views on Creator, on the nature of the universe, on the concept of morality, and on life itself... I've been studying religion (not just Christianity) for almost 14 years, now. I'm no longer convinced that Jesus believed himself to be the only-begotten son of God. I'm no longer convinced that Hell is a place of eternal damnation meant for humans. I'm no longer convinced that Heaven is eternal paradise for humans. I'm not even sure if I'm completely convinced that Christ rose from the dead.

I could look up and quote exact scriptures, but I don't see the need. In the latter parts of the Old Testament, somewhere in Corinthians, God speaks to the people, and says, more or less, that humankind has screwed up royally with his laws, so he's going to make new laws. Under the new laws, people will no longer need to teach people to love God, because all will be under the love of God. Not too far into the New Testament, the "law of Moses" is spoken of as being almost intentionally misleading. Christ spends a great amount of time arguing with the Pharisees over the spirit of the law vs. the letter of the law. Christ teaches that God is love, and screw everyone who tries to tell you otherwise.

In the end, that's all that should matter to Christians, but thanks to his disciples, we get more messages, more words in Jesus' mouth, more jabs at each other...and from the disciples, we get messages of exclusivity (as opposed to Jesus' teachings of inclusiveness). The books that we have weren't even written by the people they were named for; they were written by their students, who learned second-hand from the disciples. Not only that, but for a great amount of time after it was written, the Bible was subject to change at the whims of the Catholic Popes throughout all of the Dark Ages, and much of the Medieval period.

So the only things from the Bible I trust are the messages straight from Christ's mouth, and even then, only the sentiments that get repeated, and can be corroborated by Christ's other teachings. That's all that matters to me. Let everyone else be concerned with Christ's miracles; I don't care. It doesn't matter whether or not he walked on water... What good is it if it distracts you from his message?

I started this thread because I saw no point in all the bickering, not only between Christians and non-Christians, but between all people of all religions, including atheism...and yet, I come back after prolonged recess from the forums, and find bickering in my thread.

Sorry, I've ranted long enough in my own thread... I'll shutup, now.

All I'm saying is that if you spend your life looking for perfection, then you'll miss out on everything else that had good qualities. If you're looking for ONE religion that has the word of God exactly, without any personal or political messages added to them, then you're looking in vain, because no human can ever truly know the mind of God. And if you're willing to accept that people are not perfect, and fuck up constantly, then maybe you can look beyond it, and find some happiness here on earth.

One can see and comment about the bad without blinding oneself to the good. I'm sure DK does see good, but I will admit, when I hear about Fred Phelpps protesting at gay funerals, and trying to protest at Heath Ledger's funeral, and his good buddy Jerry Falwell stirring up BS in NYC shortly after 9/11, blaming it all on our acceptance of gays...

Well, let's just say that there are times I'm so ashamed of them, so angry at people like that, so offended by people who hold those views, that I tend to lose my temper. I don't talk about the good; I know it's out there, but like the news media, I don't feel an intense need to talk about what good is being done, because it's kind of expected.

The priests who were committing criminal actions came up... I'm going to assume that we're talking about the ones who sexually abused their wards. I just want to say something about that... Until recently, a lot of priests didn't really know what they were getting into. They were taken into the priesthood too young to understand how the celibacy that was being demanded of them would affect them. To leave the priesthood after becoming an ordained priest oftentimes meant excommunication, as being a priest meant basically being married to your position--hence the demand of celibacy.

I want everyone to understand my position. IN NO WAY DOES THIS EXCUSE WHAT HAPPENED. The children who were hurt were victims, and I feel terrible for them, and I wish it'd never happened...but ultimately, the church was the one responsible, more than the priests, for putting the priests into this position. Under the late Pope John Paul II (may he rest in peace), the rules of eligibility for priesthood changed, so that older men, who better understood their own bodies and could make better decisions, were eligible for the priesthood.

Now maybe someday, priests will be allowed healthy means of exercising their physical urges, so these problems never have to happen again.

For the record, Amida Buddha was quoted as saying that if there had been any physical urges more powerful than hunger or sex, he would not have managed to find Nirvana.

1) Fred Phelps and his whole family are total ass-hats that claim some resemblance to religion. They LIE, and they're NOT any actual religion, just a bunch of lawyers who try to outwit the system and spread their own prejudiced agendas.

2) These days, people are taking five year olds to court for sexual harassment because they dared to give a teacher a hug. And teachers are specifically told they can't even touch the kids at all, for fear that even a pat on the head could make the parents think they're treating the kids like dogs. People can't try to maintain a sense of innocence in childhood, and still be warned about every possible hypothetical danger that might exist on some level. Parents are more paranoid, and sheltering their kids beyond what's considered healthy, which results in the kid becoming paranoid too, or the kid rebelling and throwing themselves into a more dangerous situation. No one ever tries to think about the compromises you make in life. Everyone suddenly thinks life is all or nothing, either you win or lose, you're the top dog going to heaven, or you're shit on the sheets, and deserve to burn in hell. NOTHING in life ever works that way! God doesn't work that way! And unless you're determined to sink in your own depression, (most likely created from others paranoia and fear) you shouldn't work that way, either.

Introspection is a beautiful thing, and empathy for the poor lives who suffered under someone else's ignorance is a noble gesture. But eventually, if you stay there too long, you reach a point where you've got to shit or get off the pot. Find a way to change things for the better, or pray for those who aren't as luck, and make your life better. Lead by example, and anyone could follow.

KT, one day perhaps I will feel competent enough in my religion to debate you on the arguments you have against it.

All I can claim is that Christianity as it is presented today in America is generally not as Christ intended. I truly believe for the most part it has forgotten the first-love of the church and what it is supposed to be living and striving for. The hope of the church has moved from focusing on Christ and heaven to focusing on solving the problems of this fallen world. I would wholeheartedly argue that the facts support this beyond dispute.

I have spoken before about the accuracy of the texts we have today. I can point out textual scholars that would prove beyond a doubt in the accuracy of it. Again, the New Testament has more copies of it than any other ancient text. In fact there is an absurd number of copies and they are constantly finding more fragmented copies of it. If that is not enough they can rebuild most of the New Testament from the Second Century church father's writings.

Yes, there are parts that were added later (Mark 16:9-20 and John 7:53-8:11), and it is shame on the church for continuing to print them even after knowing they are not genuine. However, the core text that is supposed to be there is whole and accurate and more importantly none of the core beliefs of Christianity is affected by the removal of the text that doesn't belong.

As for the reference to God speaking of redoing things I have an idea what you are referring to and I believe you are misunderstanding what is being said. The Israelites continually screwed up what God had intended, so God was creating a new way that cleared the mess that Israel had put in the way of salvation. The Law of Moses is never talked to as being misleading, what was misleading was the additional laws the Priests had put on the Jewish people.

To put things into proper prospective you have to realize that the Old Testament contains only 10 laws (the Ten Commandments) and then there are 603 guidelines for righteous living (or mitzvot in ancient Hebrew). Of those guidelines a large portion applied only to the Levites in the performance of their priestly duties. These weren't The Law, but the Jewish people began treating them as so instead of using them as the guidelines they were intended to be. Simply put the intent was if you followed the guidelines you wouldn't break the 10 Laws.

However, the Pharisees and scribes add their own so-called laws and traditions on top of this. These were rules that kept you from breaking guidelines. If messed up the rules protecting the guidelines they acted as if you broke the law. This system was messed up because it was near impossible to not break the rules protecting the guidelines protecting the law. This is what God meant by humankind screwed it up, they made it far more difficult than it was intended to be. You didn't have a group of people loving God, you had people terrified of breaking one of the multitudes of rules they had to follow.

This is what you find Christ speaking out against, not the 10 Commandments but the hedge laws that made it impossible to find God. He was angry at the Pharisees following the letter of the guidelines without showing compassion, or using the guidelines as a shield to hide their unholy behavior. Christ himself said that he was not there to abolish the law of Moses, but to fulfill it. If you want a serious debate, we can go into how he fulfilled it by being the ultimate sin-sacrifice but that is a long discussion. And believe me it is vital to a Christian's faith that the resurrection happened, and as I said before every bit of credible evidence I can find points to it being a historical event.

I am truly sorry for what your parents went through. As you said, that is not what Christ intended for his followers to do. It is not a Christian's place to judge mankind, it is a Christian's responsibility to emulate what Christ did. In fact the true core of His message was this, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul," and "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." I would love anyone to explain how condemning someone else is showing those two core principles.