I think I'm agreeing with you, Kei.

Then you believe in Free Will not following a script that was written just for you.

I don't pretend to understand things totally, but some people think that a few major events in our lives are pre-destined, it is just how we get there is not. Nor perhaps how we in fact deal with those events when we get to them either.

Hope you'r right kid, hope your right - I would hate to think the one way trip to hell I'm in for was for nothin.

It really would not matter.
It would just be a script that everyone followed.

Not really for anything, let alone nothing.

It is a question of are we doomed to make our mistakes or do you have the ability to alter your destiny.

I would like to believe that we are all able to change our fates, but I have met those that believe that things will happen no matter what we do.

As I said there are those who believe that some events are are going to happen in our lives no matter what we do. But how we get to them, and how we deal with them is up to us, and those desions determine our true fate.

And that is Free Will.

Unless you are talking dying there really is nothing that is going to happen "no matter what".

To throw another curve out there. I occasionally have visions of what will happen, is that free will at work or am I seeing predetermined events?

I think that's more of a possible destiny, not an absolute destiny. If things can be done to change the outcome, then the visions will be altered. I'm thinking of that one Halloween episode of the Simpsons where Ned Flanders foresees killing Homer.

"All the world's a stage, and we are but mere players"
(one of Will's favorite quotes)

You all are making this too complicated.

Not all THAT complicated, but go ahead and explain.

If you are following a script but allowed to improve then you are not following the script, you are exercising Free Will.

So there is either Free Will or there is not. Keep it simple, say "Free Will".

All right, maybe it's not that simple, either.

The two ideas are not mutually exclusive. destiny exists, even when the person it refers to has free will. Otherwise, why are there people with psychic abilities? They'd just be called "fictionists".

It's not a question of destiny. It's a question of predestiny, of living according to a script already written for you.

Thomas Sheldon wrote:Hope you'r right kid, hope your right - I would hate to think the one way trip to hell I'm in for was for nothin.

Then get to work on making free will work . . .

Just remember: either he's in a situation where his free will was taken away from him, or he's just being an ass about it.

Ok, let me put it this way, my client is one of the spell casting sort, it was a blood contract, and the hellhounds that appeared inside my van while I was driving down the road made it kind of clear that there are "consequences" for even minor violations of said contract.

Now since I don't really feel like going to visit old scratch any sooner than I absolutely have to.......


Ron Caliburn, if you can honestly say that you would just roll over and die to "do what's right" I do have to tip my hat to you - that makes you a better, and a stronger man than I am.

As is I am hoping that a "reminder" shows up while I am hunting lycans - if they go after eachother it makes my job easier, of course if they all come after me, I may have to get creative.

Not necessarily fictionists, perhaps rather than actually "seeing the future" their subconcious calculates teh odds, and gives them a look at the most probable outcome, with all things considered?

Of course that is one of the things that I have always wondered, is it prediction, or probability for the clairvoyant?

There're some important things to define for this debate...

1) Pre-destination: The idea that mankind has NO freedom of action. Those who believe in pre-destination believe that everything we do in life is written by some form of universal higher power, and that we alone have no power to change our own futures.

2) Free Will: The idea that mankind has power over their own actions, and are therefore subject to consequences, repercussions, etc. Those who believe in Free Will want to (and do) believe that our lives are there to be lived, not watched. If there is a belief in a universal Higher Power, it is an individual one, rather than relating to the belief in Free Will.

3) Destiny: This, along with the idea of Fate, is much harder to define... Many people tend to use the two terms interchangeably, and the definitions tend to change from one person to the next. I could put forth my own definitions for each term, but to be honest, it isn't important for the purpose of the debate. Suffice it to say that "Destiny" is a vastly different philosophical idea from "Pre-Destination".

4) Clairvoyance: I bring this up because it has come up and could have an impact on the debate. I wish to bring up that psychics see a possible future, through visions, divination, or just feelings that something is going to happen. (My wife seems to be one of the latter, though she vehemently denies it.) Many times, the glimpses/feelings/whatever that a psychic gets about the future are fairly trivial, but sometimes, they can be of a far more earth-shattering importance. Either which way, the future doesn't always necessarily reflect what a psychic sees; the future seen in visions can be changed. I have witnessed this myself on countless occasions. This isn't necessarily proof against Pre-Destination, however; a Pre-Destinationalist could argue that the psychic received these "false" visions of the future for the explicit purpose that they would perform certain actions to ensure the "true" future happens.

As for myself, I believe in Free Will, but as has already been said, there is no way to prove either side of the debate... Aside from putting my vote out there, I'm not pursuing it, myself.

So, Kolya obviously goes with the "no free will" vote, according to that comment about pre-destiny.

Nah, I was just explaining that people are not talking about the matter of the original question.

The original question didn't even mention destiny OR pre-destiny. And this forum wouldn't be too interesting if everyone just replied with "yes" or "no".

Yea, I aware

concrete_Angel wrote:The original question didn't even mention destiny OR pre-destiny.

Living by a script is pre-destiny. At least in the classical philosophical argument.

I did not intend to cause confusion by my ignorance of the correct terms. If what KT is correct, I was talking about Freewill and Predestiny. Although, if I remember correctly my college philosophy class called it Freewill and Fate.

Ron Caliburn wrote:Well Sheldon - I would do my best to go out fighting rather than being used by a monster.

Well' kiddo that is a great idea, I intend to send a message to my client, and tthose that might seek to emulate him just as soon as I can do so without kickin over. If I die on this contract the little slimebag gets to kepp getting away with this sort of thing. I survive the contract, by fulfillment, or violation (already figgured out I won't survive breaking it very many times) and the asshat becomes little more than a small splash on page 6, to quickly fade to a bad memory.