DarKnyht wrote:I am just starting to dislike everything that is associated or associates with supernatural beings.

I think this is a good thing.

But I think Shadowstalker is correct, too.

We do not want you turning into Azreal, for example.

I am not quite to his line of thinking. Although lately there are times I wonder why we shouldn't just rid the gene pool of the ones that willingly work with supernatural horrors. But the reality is that humans no matter how misguided need to be helped. Otherwise I would be no better than that which I fight.

However, I am starting to be convinced that there are no "Good" supernatural forces, just ones that see manipulating good people as an easy way to their own goals.

Ever felt the feeling of peace when you enter a buddhist temple? The feeling is not natural. My friend Okkikan, though a bit child like, would qualify as good I think (without him, I would be lost - literally). When the Kami cluster around me, protect me, shower me with their blessings, Is that manipulating me to achieve their goals? (If so their goals match my own, so I don't mind) What about the buddhas, and the bodhisavatas, who once were human, but have since dedicated thamselves to helping us all down the road to enlightenment?

No, young one, there are "good" beings out there. Most, however help in the quiet, unnoticable ways that leave most unaware that they have even crossed paths with the being, much less been aided by it.

There is an argument in philosophy called the divine command theory. It asks, "Are morally good acts willed by God because they are morally good, or are they morally good because they are willed by God?"

I would ask that question slightly different, "Are the beings you claim good that way because they are good, or are they good because they fit our views of what is good?"

I try to keep it simple. I do not have the time or the mind for that philosophical stuff.

I do not see things as good against evil, but humanity and humanity's allies against their enemies.

Isaiah describes my own thoughts perfectly on the matter:

Isaiah wrote:Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Humanity is given a knowledge of what is evil and what is good. Or at least, that is my belief. And they are free to choose for themselves. Though I have left their ranks, I do what I can to see good triumph.

I am not trying to change the definition of good and evil, I am just not calling something/someone good just because they appear to do good acts.

It is interesting that you, Celeste, come with this argument. You are trying to deny your nature by attempting to be the opposite of what you are. You may do good things and be a good person, but at the end of the day you remain a pariah and scourge to humanity.

Is it not by the fruit that the nature of tree is known?

But if that fruit be bitter, can not the tree be redeemed? Or, if it be sweet, could it not be turned bitter?

well put, the best argument for both sides, placed right in one place.

Sorry bout the "hijack" Koyla, can you send me a sample of the armor your assailants were using? (I do have some experience with armor, just not the modern stuff)

Sure, everyone is surprised the soldier is a philosopher. I am a lover of wisdom.

Thank you for the kind words Master Li.

The problem with all the arguments I've seen so far is that there is no clear-cut universal definition for "good" or "evil". There are languages out there that don't even include them in their vocabulary, because the people just don't think like that. "Good" and "evil" are human inventions with no real "true" definition... What is "good" is good because it fits within our societal views and beliefs, and what is "evil" is evil because it doesn't.

I prefer to think in terms of "benign" and "malignant". There are creatures and people who try to do benevolent acts of kindness and goodness, there are creatures and people who actively seek to hurt or kill others, and there are people and creatures who fall somewhere in between, who just try to live their lives as best they can without worrying too much about doing either.

Sorry; I attended a philosophical debate on the definition of "good" and "evil", just to see how other modern philosophers defined it. It was both annoying and funny to watch the entire debate devolve into a pitched screaming fit by the time I walked out.

I will leave this debate for now with one final thought.

When the things we hunt are killed, they do not remain upon this world. We all know this and it is one of the more frustrating parts of trying to prove what we do to someone. I believe that this is because they really do not belong on this world. The only exceptions I have heard of is vampires, but then they are only leaving behind the remains of that which they corrupted.

The same event happens for those things that are supposedly benign and beneficial are killed. This to me is evidence that they also do not belong to this world. All I am advocating is sending that which doesn't belong on our planet back to wherever they came from. We have enough problems from the things that are actually from this planet.

Didn't Master Li recount a tale to us, of a penitant vampire that after achieving enlightenment, went to go watch the sunrise; and when found in the morning, he didn't leave a pile of ashes but a human corpse?

That would agree with what I am saying.

When the vampire destroyed itself, the unnatural part of it was removed from this planet while the natural part (the corpse) was left behind.

Shang Li wrote::o well put, the best argument for both sides, placed right in one place.

Sorry bout the "hijack" Koyla, can you send me a sample of the armor your assailants were using? (I do have some experience with armor, just not the modern stuff)

Yea, I am sure it is stored away somewhere.

Let me rifle through the paperwork. In the meantime, you can tell me where to send it.

Bert_the_Turtle wrote:Sure, everyone is surprised the soldier is a philosopher. I am a lover of wisdom.

Thank you for the kind words Master Li.

Your skirt seems to fit perfectly, Bert

Is Wisdom another one of your undead relationships?

KonThaak wrote:Sorry; I attended a philosophical debate on the definition of "good" and "evil", just to see how other modern philosophers defined it. It was both annoying and funny to watch the entire debate devolve into a pitched screaming fit by the time I walked out.

I can imagine the scene just from this paragraph.

Kolya wrote:

Bert_the_Turtle wrote:Sure, everyone is surprised the soldier is a philosopher. I am a lover of wisdom.

Thank you for the kind words Master Li.

Your skirt seems to fit perfectly, Bert

Is Wisdom another one of your undead relationships?

Damnit Kolya! Quit skirting the issues!

DarKnyht wrote:The same event happens for those things that are supposedly benign and beneficial are killed. This to me is evidence that they also do not belong to this world. All I am advocating is sending that which doesn't belong on our planet back to wherever they came from. We have enough problems from the things that are actually from this planet.

This is the same black/white stuff that blinds Azrael.

I have lost count the number of aliens have encountered in my career. 100s, easily.

Most of them were destroyed. A few - a very few - were not and live peacefully among us. More than that, a handful have joined the fight against the darkness in order to help humanity. You think Sasha is weird, wait until you meet Ivan.

Bert_the_Turtle wrote:Damnit Kolya! Quit skirting the issues!

That was painful, Bert.

DarKnyht wrote:I will leave this debate for now with one final thought.

When the things we hunt are killed, they do not remain upon this world. We all know this and it is one of the more frustrating parts of trying to prove what we do to someone. I believe that this is because they really do not belong on this world. The only exceptions I have heard of is vampires, but then they are only leaving behind the remains of that which they corrupted.

The same event happens for those things that are supposedly benign and beneficial are killed. This to me is evidence that they also do not belong to this world. All I am advocating is sending that which doesn't belong on our planet back to wherever they came from. We have enough problems from the things that are actually from this planet.

I'm praticularly keen on this idea.

DarKnyht wrote:It is interesting that you, Celeste, come with this argument. You are trying to deny your nature by attempting to be the opposite of what you are. You may do good things and be a good person, but at the end of the day you remain a pariah and scourge to humanity.

Exactly. Helping others will not allow me to regain my humanity. I know full well what I am. But I do not use that as an excuse to feed. Rather, I use that as a lever to remind myself of what I can do: help Humanity . . . or destroy it.

I would much rather help it. I believe Humanity knows what it does. They cannot know ever consequence for their actions, but they know as a whole what they do. No matter what he says, no matter how eloquently he may say it, the rapist cannot justify his acts as ones of righteousness. The murderer cannot claim the voices he hears will absolve him from the guilt of drowning his victims even while they struggle for breath.

And those that do . . . those people that claim they have a “right” to commit atrocities and call them moral . . . woe unto them.On the other hand . . . those who condemn the heroes for saving children from drowning, or who plead for peace . . . .

Kolya wrote:You think Sasha is weird, wait until you meet Ivan.

I not even meet Ivan yet, seems.

More weird than Sasha? That is weird.

I do not condemn you for being a hero. In fact despite my feelings I appreciate what you have done. But with that aside, you are not human that was Celeste Darken. You are something not of this world that took over her body when the vampire killed her.

Despite you being somewhat tame, what will happen if you are deprived of blood for an extended time? Ron or another of the experienced hunters of your kind can confirm if I am right, but I believe that eventually the hunger would overwhelm your better senses and cause you to gorge possibly on innocents or friends. And what would something like that do to your mental abilities if it happens over time?

As for the rest of the things that do not belong here, some appear to be only helpful but what are they taking in return that we don't see? Everything needs substance to survive, so what are those things that seem benign feeding off of? I would wager that most are in one way or another feeding off the things that belong here.

Celeste Darken wrote:Fair enough question, DarKnyht. I hope I am never placed in such a position, but that may occur sometime in the future. And my only answer is I would hold out for as long as possible. And I would also kill myself before hurting an innocent like Molly.

Nobody can sae for certain that they would kill themself before . . . survial instincts are too strong to be able to accurately make that decision before you are in the time and place you have to make it.

That's why I've asked folks to take me out if I ever get infected with lycanthropy or vampirism. I don't know if I could do myself in, even then.

If times are ever that dire, I will gladly donate, I have lived a rich and full life, an "accident" is to me an acceptable risk to take. If there comes a time that it is needed, you can put me down for about a pint a week. (I am not as young as I once was)