The Deal

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:06 pm

Me four.

AdamaGeist · Post by **AdamaGeist** » Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:29 pm

Ron's a bit cold at this moment, and a bit jumbled... But I understand what he's trying to say.

I think Bloodbane ended his life this way for a few reasons... One of which is probably because he had the same viewpoint of himself that Ron had. That no matter what, he was still a risk. He probably didn't have the heart to comit suicide... either that, or he was catholic, and belived Suicide to be a mortal sin. But being killed by someone that shares your ideals...

What Ron needs to solidify is his opinion... Is it your afflictions that is the value of your life, or your actions? If it's your actions, he's a little too harsh on Bloodbane over the vampire issues, concidering the way his life realy was led... Not that Ron could have known those when he met the man.

Either way, it's realy a moot point now. We don't mourn Bloodbane because he was a vampire, or hail Celeste for being one. We do this for what they are doing, not what they are. Just because we call them among our own, it doesn't mean that we like vampires. It means that we've allowed the rare exception to be among us... Where we can keep an eye on them.

I'm certain that Celeste understands that.

Celeste Darken · Post by **Celeste Darken** » Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:37 pm

AdamaGeist wrote:We don't mourn Bloodbane because he was a vampire, or hail Celeste for being one. We do this for what they are doing, not what they are. Just because we call them among our own, it doesn't mean that we like vampires. It means that we've allowed the rare exception to be among us... Where we can keep an eye on them.

I'm certain that Celeste understands that.

I do.

Bert_the_Turtle · Post by **Bert_the_Turtle** » Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:45 pm

Vampires I've killed: Lost count around 30.
Vampires I've fought alongside: 1

I made a single exception for Celeste because she isn't a vampire anymore; not in the traditional sense anyway.

She needs blood to sustain herself? Yes.

Is she in control of her actions? Yes.

Is she a murderer now? No.

Was she in control of herself when she was? No.

Has she, as far as we know, shown remorse for what she's done? Hell Yes.

If she lost herself I'd give her the same chance we gave Ben, but not one stitch more. If she just plain turned evil on us I'd put her down myself the same as I'm prepared to do to anyone or anything.

Now, I didn't know Bloodbane, but if he was a good person (and outwardly he appeared to be), I would give him the same chance I give Celeste.

I am more than willing to agree to disagree on the topic and let it fall, because one camp is not going to be able to convince the other.

KonThaak · Post by **KonThaak** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:32 am

Y'know, guys... Looking back at his posts, not too many of us, myself included, really did much to try to make the guy welcome. He did play kind of shady, and he did say he didn't have much interest in being a full member, but considering what we reminded him of, according to his "will", I think I can kinda understand that. Nevertheless, we didn't really go out of our way to make him feel like he could belong here at all.

I mean, hell, he made a post towards the beginning of a thread about "if you don't hear from me by tomorrow night, then something's happened to me", or something to that effect. Noone said a thing. Ron finally said something, almost four or five days after the fact...

Maybe he wouldn't've felt the need to make the deal he did with Ron if he'd been even half as welcomed as Celeste. Which probably rankled with him about the same way it does Ron, given that the two seemed to share a lot of viewpoints.

As for the suicide thing, the only sure-fire way to kill a Wampyr I've seen recorded is decapitation. That's a bit difficult for most people to accomplish on their own. That's why seppuku in Japan takes two people. Granted, he could've stood out in the sunlight for a good, long while, but because Wampyrs burn so slowly, that would've taken hours, probably been painful as all hell, and at some point, his survival instincts would've kicked in and moved him into the shade.

So really, getting someone to kill him was pretty much the only way to do it. He *was* committing suicide; he just had no way of doing it himself.

Holister · Post by **Holister** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:28 am

Good ol' country hick sheriff here.
Did anyone bother to actually ID the body. I was under the assumption that most SupNat's discoperated or turned to dust.

I know that this is just the CSI training I took a while back. But since Ron never checked on the guy until a while later, he could have faked his own death. Anyone really check that body out yet. I know with the head gone ID will be difficult. But what about prints, blood samples, DNA tests, spread patterns, blood paterns, crime scnene investigation.

Just a thought.

Ron Caliburn · Post by **Ron Caliburn** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:45 am

I took a good look when I cleaned up the scene. The fangs were real and the body didn't evaporate.

I suppose I should have left him for the media to hear about and maybe get some more people aware of the true nature of the world . . . but that didn't seem like the right thing to do.

Holister · Post by **Holister** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:50 am

Right might humane things to do there Ron, being he was a blood sucker and all. Almost makes ya human yourself.

Ron Caliburn · Post by **Ron Caliburn** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:20 am

I'm not the one who has trouble understanding what is or isn't human.

I said I was one of the good guys. I never claimed to be one of the nice guys.

AdamaGeist · Post by **AdamaGeist** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:31 am

Good and nice are rarely the same thing. And I've never knocked Ron on his attitudes or behavior. Ron's a good man, trying very hard to do an almost impossible job, and he understand that the easy path isn't always the best one.

Shang Li · Post by **Shang Li** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:35 pm

Ah, but which is the easier path? (and which is right?), To condemn all members of a species because of the things the majority do, or to accept that some are fortunate enough to turn away from their legacy and to try to help them become more "good"?

And if we are willing to condemn entire groups for the actions of the majority, why are we not on our own lists of "monsters"?

In my view a monster is based on the actions - not the species.

And as for being one of the "nice guys" I try.

"By their fruits shall they be known." J.C.

My door is always open and I offer sanctuary, at any risk, to anyone or anything whose deeds do not make them a monster. (I am currently aiding a few non-humans who seek peace. I will shelter them untill they harm someone, or untill I am dead)

Ron Caliburn · Post by **Ron Caliburn** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:26 pm

Shang Li wrote:(I am currently aiding a few non-humans who seek peace. I will shelter them untill they harm someone, or untill I am dead)

I hope that they don't find their monstrousness again and make you or some innocent pay for that choice Shang.

In my books, using humans as a food source makes one a monster, no matter how good and honourable your intentions are.

Shang Li · Post by **Shang Li** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:45 pm

If they harm an innocent while under my care their death will come quick and merciful, as I promised them, as they agreed when I gave them sanctuary.

As for a food source I have found that most things that think of us as food can either make do with the dead, or do not need to kill to feed.

So when someone does a monsterous deed they become a monster forever? (looks like we better both turn ourselves in to the other members of this board for justice then, Mr. Caliburn.)

There is a large difference in doing something out of need, and being a monster. Many so called monsters did not choose to be that way. I give them the choice when I can.

(And yes I do respect Ms. Darken more than most on this board - her humanity comes at higher price, and is struggled for more strongly, How much easier would it be to give in to that nature? Yet still she struggles, and still she proves, night by night that it can be done. I cannot help but give such a strong will and good heart the respect it desrves.)

edited to add the following.

I have paid the price when they find their "monsterness" as you put it Mr. Caliburn, and will do so as often as required. What font do you think the one kyuuketsuki in my care drinks from when the madness comes and the bloodbank too far? I spill my blood and he drinks it. Fortunately I was able to set aside a bit before I was shot. (amazing what you can get from a clinic when they know you as a friend)

Greydawn · Post by **Greydawn** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:48 pm

Ron Caliburn wrote:
Shang Li wrote:(I am currently aiding a few non-humans who seek peace. I will shelter them untill they harm someone, or untill I am dead)

I hope that they don't find their monsterness again and make you or some innocent pay for that choice Shang.

In my books, using humans as a food source makes one a monster, no matter how good and honerable your intentions are.

Mr. Caliburn i think that you are forgetting one tiny fact they can feed with out killing. Besides I know of one that has an acount at the blood bank where he lives and yes the manager knows what he uses it for. He like you fights the monsters that prey on the innocent.

Ron Caliburn · Post by **Ron Caliburn** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:52 pm

Why do so many here have to keep making excuses for things that live by doing harm to people?

Holister · Post by **Holister** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:05 pm

First of all Ron, people do eat people from time to time. In some cultures and relgins, it is a common practice. Hence the term known as CANABALISM.

As for your attitude toward other (humanity impaired) persons here at Lazlo, I think Ill start referring to you as Dr. Shepard.

When I was talkin' like you Ron, I had someone else in my head doin' it for me. That person is who are startin' to sound like more and more. Folks lie Celeste, Greydawn, Bearshaman, Adam, even Bloodbane and GRIM put their lives down on that thin line of right & wrong, Good & evil, challenged what their nature screams at them to do, and walked away from a better pesron.

Humanity is not reserved just for humans Ron, I mean Dr. Shepard.

Ron Caliburn · Post by **Ron Caliburn** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:11 pm

And when I find humans who prey on humans, I deal with them.

The area of the Blight I regularly patrol is almost totally free of Drug Dealers, Pimps and Gangbangers.

As for Shepard, I admit, I don't disagree with him on all points. But enough of you keep vouching for those you listed off that I don't go trying to track down the leads I have on them. Maybe I trust your judgment or maybe I have some hope somewhere inside me that you might be right.

In the mean time I prepare for when you're proven wrong.

Holister · Post by **Holister** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:23 pm

Why Dr. Shepard, you've just admitted to kiling human beings. I guess by your own deffinition of the word "monster" that makes you one.

You are not judge, jury, and executioner. You are suppose the protect the innocent, protect humanity. so who in turn protects them from you.

As for waiting for our mistakes Ron, I mean Dr. Shepard, you have made more than enough of your own to fill your plate for a very long time.

When "real" monsters threaten the innocent we act. When people are in need of justice, let the law handle it.

You preach on about the hunt Ron, one day it may be you who is being hunted by those who label you as a monster.

Something to think bout there Dr. Shepard.

Ron Caliburn · Post by **Ron Caliburn** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:27 pm

Did I say I killed them?

The legal process has means to deal with them. I just make sure they are gift wrapped for the police and the prosecutors.

I do what's necissary on the creatures outside the understanding of laws.

Shang Li · Post by **Shang Li** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:29 pm

Very well Mr. Caliburn. Since this seems to be the only way you will understand it, I will apply your logic - since it is sound.

I offer you the same agreement to those under my protection. The day I discover that you have hunted and killed a being that does no harm, predator or not, is the day I will hunt YOU.

Deal?

I am not judging you Mr. Caliburn - merely letting you know what will happen if you prove yourself to be a monster by deed.

Ron Caliburn · Post by **Ron Caliburn** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:33 pm

I don't need your "protection" Shang.

For that matter, I've already made it a matter of pubic record that if I was ever turned into a werewolf I'd rather one of you come and kill me than risk injury trying to cure me.

That applies to anything else that makes me a threat to the innocent anyway.

If the Society feels they have to, they have to.

Shang Li · Post by **Shang Li** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:41 pm

Very well then.

On the day you spill innocent blood I will, with great regret, unsheath my blades and put an end to another "monster" Mr. Caliburn.

So it is Sworn, So shall it be Done.

Oh and i wasn't offering you protection - just the oath I swore to each of those I protect.
[/i]

AdamaGeist · Post by **AdamaGeist** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:42 pm

All in all, I find it ironic... I know full well that Ron would not harm a human being any more than neccisary, and would never kill except in self defence. But for his harsh views cleanly spoken, you treat him like an animal.

I, on the other hand, would not hesitate to kill those I concider worthy of killing. In fact, I try to restrain myself from vernturing out into the world mainly because I see little harm in removing those people from the world that do not deserve to remain in it.

I lack certain traits of human morality, I understand that. I admire Ron for keeping them, where I have not. And for all our arguments, I see more eye to eye with Ron than with the rest of the society.

How about you give Ron as much leeway as we give Celeste, Hmm? I'll vouch for him, much as I do for her. He's a good man, trying his hardest. Do try to remember that.

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:44 pm

Shang Li wrote:The day I discover that you have hunted and killed a being that does no harm, predator or not, is the day I will hunt YOU.

This represents a fundamental misunderstanding of who Ron is.

Let's stop trying to kick the whale down the beach, ok.

Holister · Post by **Holister** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:48 pm

But Adama, Celeste is supposedly a monster that can not help herself, good or not, she is to be condemned and watched with suspicious eyes for any reason to kill her the moment she shows weakness.

Ron is a human being, whats his excuse.

Oh yes; I do agree with Master Li.
When he day comes and you hurt an innocent willingly, I will come gunnin' for you. I wouldn't want Master Li to dirty his hands with the likes of you at that time.

I won't kill you though, unless Im givin' no other option. I would see you stand trial, I would see you pay for your crimes, I will have your sister sittin' in that court room to see what it is you became.

I believe in punishment Ron, not all comes at the end of a bullet.

Shang Li · Post by **Shang Li** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:54 pm

I am concerned about those under my care and those like them around the world. Mr. Caliburn has clearly stated he would kill them on sight regardless of if they are doing harm, or have done harm. (the kyuuketsuki in my care has never killed a man, nor fed on the unwilling - and yet those like Mr. Caliburn would kill him while he was taking in a walk in the park - all over a "gift" he never asked to be given)

The day such an event happens, what seperates him from that which he hunts?
(A demon we may all have to face one day)

AdamaGeist · Post by **AdamaGeist** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:54 pm

Gee, Ben, you just described most of the human race with that, as well.

Why don't you ask Celeste to describe herself? She'll probably use the same terms you have. I trust her, I like her, but I don't deny what she is. Nor does she. We all know what she is, and the risk she poses, in potential.

Hell, you'll find me to be her staunchest supporter. But I'm also the one that promiced to take responsibility and go personaly to eliminate her if she does backslide, becoming just like the rest of her kind.

Celeste has killed more people than Ron, and as far as we know, Ron's never killed an innocent. So why are you condemning Ron for things he COULD do, but not Celeste for what she HAS done?

I may be mentaly unbalanced, but I can see the Hypocracy in your statements. So far, all Ron has said is that he'd kill those supernatural beings that become threats to humans. Isn't that why we're all here?

Shang Li · Post by **Shang Li** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:06 pm

It is not a matter of principal Mr. Geist, it is a matter of degree. I agree with more of what Mr. Caliburn belives than you seem to think. It is where he draws the line that concerns me.
To Mr Caliburn feeding at a bloodbank is wrong because a human might need the blood later and it might save a life. (I would argue that in being a meal for such it just did).
Mr. Caliburn has also stated in the past that he thinks anything (as a species, not an individual) that feeds on humans is a threat to innocents. (I know many beings with a taste for human flesh and pain that would pass up an innocent in favor of say, Dr. Shepard - many of them like the taste of hate)

If I am mistaken Mr. Caliburn - please say so, as I would not enjoy having had villified so over a miscommunication. If I am not mistaken - my offer stands.

Celeste Darken · Post by **Celeste Darken** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:13 pm

Ben . . . Li-san . . . leave Ron alone. He is a good man who has done good things. And yes, he “could do,” while I “have done.” But we must prepare for the future while not forgetting the past. So do not condemn Mr. Caliburn for what he has not done yet.

Thank you, Adama, for your words. They confess my thoughts very well. We all walk a fine line in this vocation. Anybody can go over the precarious edge, myself included. Let’s not push one another off.

We are all on the same team, last I checked. And just like any team, the members are not the same. They are different; they serve different purposes. Otherwise, we would fail. A basketball team would lose to its opponents if they had nothing but Centers. The same would be said of Point Guards. The same technique is used for the human body . . . for just about any body, for that matter. It would not work if there was nothing but feet. It only works because it doesn’t attack itself and it has various members, all with different functions.

So let’s not point any fingers . . . or gun barrels. We are here to destroy monsters, to see Humanity survive, and to protect those that need our protection. I have not yet seen anyone here whose goal is to make everyone subscribe to the same philosophy.

So let’s each do our part.

Shadowstalker · Post by **Shadowstalker** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:16 pm

Another point I would like to add to Adama's Commentary is that Ron has not gone looking for someone or something before it or they have made themselves knowen to be a Threat to my Knowledge. This is a situation most of us deal with I think. Oh another thing I would like to count myself as friend to both Celeste and Ron and I ask that both are cut some slack.

The Deal

All too well

We are all on the same team