Granted, but there are a lot of cases where it would seem some people are far more likely to be what they claim than others.

KonThaak wrote:Granted, but there are a lot of cases where it would seem some people are far more likely to be what they claim than others.

that we can definitely agree on.

Kolya wrote:Lycanthropy is a legitimate mental illness.

It is the ones that actually change that I worry about.

Almost forgot to reply to this one... It's also a physical condition, in which one grows hair all over their body. It looks like shaggy fur, and the people afflicted with it look wolfish. Many people were wrongly put to death back in the olden days because of that affliction.

Bert_the_Turtle wrote:Whoah there KT. Don't you know that using reason and logic are fightin' words? :P

Heh, perhaps. But druids are pacifistic in nature. We have to get our aggression out somehow. *smirk*

BraveSirRobin wrote:

The Traveler King wrote:More ridiculous are Otakin or Otakukin, supposed reincarnations of characters from Japanese anime, manga, and video games.

for a guy who claims to have been to another dimension, you're certainly failing to grasp the full implications of the theory of infinite worlds.

I understand it fully and compared to Otherkin and Otakukin, I have the proof and the experience to back it up. The simple fact is this, they are ordinary human beings who want to be seen as something special and accepted by others. For one reason or another, mostly dissatisfaction with themselves and their lives (whether due to boredom, abuse, mental difficulties, or whatever), they invent these past lives.

I'm sure that Celeste can verify this, as she travels in a circle rife with Vampire Otherkin, Lifestylers, and so on. Those of us in our particular calling can sort them out, but too many of them can slow down our work. I can forsee some less cautious people actually hurting them in the process of hunting more legitimate targets as well.

Otherkin...

I am not one to readily distrust people that belive they are such, with a few very notable exceptions. After all, with the infinite possibilities of unlimited space, there is always a CHANCE that people are reincarnations of things not commonly found on this world.

As for myself... While I distrust the words of my teacher out of principle, I cannot lead myself to belive the wings I manifest in my astral form are somthing born purely of training, let alone the ease with which I adapt and grow stronger.

However, while I doubt my soul was originaly or purely human, at least... You'll find that most of the time, the 'Otherkin' are anything but. I'm reminded of someone a friend of mine met online... A person who belived he was a reincarnated wolf... From another planet. See, there was a planet of wolves, highly intelegent, and he'd sinned against their ways somehow, so he was punished by being reincarnated on earth as one of us horrible humans. What's more, the guy had a website, detailing all of this, about how humans are so terrible, and how he's realy a wolf.

How can you tell if they are real or not? There are a few clues... People who say they are reincarnated vampires, and wish to return to that lifestyle? Obviously never were. Any vampire that returned enough humanity to have a second shot at life wouldn't persue that in their next go-round.

Dragons? Well, tho possible, I doubt that any dragon with an option would care to be reincarnated as a HUMAN.

Anime characters? Well, I don't think there's an unlimited supply of Inu-Yasha's and Vash the Stampede's out in the universe to supply these people with souls... It's mental Cos-play, and nothing else. Besides, if they WERE real, they'd never mention it. How would you like to have a major section of your life, with all it's plusses and minuses, played out in easy-to-read format? If I knew someone else knew all my secrets from a past life, I'd make sure they never learned that I was that person.

And as for Fae... Well, I've run into a person who belives that all supernatural beings, save for shapeshifters and vampires, are realy all Faerie of some sort, from Angels to Elves. All because a homeless man who claims he went into the home of the faerie told her so...

Of course, the Fae of her fantasy life all behave like the perverted faerie of a certain teen-to-adult author's way of portraying them...

While I'm willing to admit that the range of Faerie is rather wide, from the shimmering Sprites to the horrible Iron Shoes, but I realy doubt there's a clan of Angel-to-Elven sex-fae hanging around in some dimention, being reborn as humans to continue their ways on Earth.

The easiest way to test is just to find out what they belive they are, and how they got here.

Celeste Darken wrote:So, indeed yes, Mr. Caliburn. I deserve death. Nor will I begrudge the person to administer it to me. My only hope is, when I leave the world behind . . . my legacy of helping humanity may somewhat negate my legacy of evil. And this is the reason I . . . brood, Mr. Holister. I appreciate your attempts to be lighthearted, but . . . it doesn’t work for me.

Celeste, like so many here, I think you're a little too hard on yourself. I know how hard, even impossible, it is to find a way to atone for your sins, but beating yourself up over them doesn't cause any healing either.

I know where I come from in this... I too am burdened by my past sins. And in a very real way, they are much much worse then yours. They came not out of the depths of blood-lust, or mind-controlled viciousness. Not from the overbearing presence of somthing else that burdens all vampires... Instead they came from a place of cold, heartless logic, that cared not the wieght of the crime, only for the results that the actions would bring.

But even for my inability to forgive myself, or truly ever atone, I have decided to live on. Not just to purify myself, but because it's what I SHOULD do. As long as you're alive, or undead in your case, you should live your life. Not free from regrets, but not buried under them either.

I, for one, belive in the good in you. More, I belive in you, yourself. You might remember that fact from the arguments Ron and I got into only half a year ago, over you. But it's time not just for me to belive in you, but for you to belive in yourself.

And I promice you, if you do ever return to being a monster, I'll end your suffering myself.

Ah, but Ron... I could say much the same for all of us. Not the drinking of blood, but the inevitable risk of killing someone innocent, or perhaps somthing worse.

Every day, every friend we make outside of our little circle immidiately becomes at risk, a potential target of our enemies. Your little doppleganger seems very interested in harming people we care for, or forcing us to do so. By attempting to live our human lives, we are putting the potential that everyone we know will die horrible deaths at the hands of monsters, for no greater reason then that we know them.

If Celeste gets hungry, she can always raid a blood-bank. Or even get supplies from one, and keep somthing set aside for a rainy day. There is nothing we can do to provent the risk to those we love, except to kill them ourselves, and then hide out somewhere and never make human contact again.

Simply stated, every one of us runs a risk of killing an innocent, in so many ways. Crossfire, accident, ignorance. At least Celeste admits this fact from herself, and does wish that we remove her, if she ever does just that.

KonThaak wrote:

Kolya wrote:Lycanthropy is a legitimate mental illness.

It is the ones that actually change that I worry about.

Almost forgot to reply to this one... It's also a physical condition, in which one grows hair all over their body. It looks like shaggy fur, and the people afflicted with it look wolfish. Many people were wrongly put to death back in the olden days because of that affliction.

Well that is certianly interesting. Did not know that.

Ron Caliburn wrote:Even if she raids a blood bank, she is still taking blood tht is needed to save innocent lives.

Moo?

Not up on vampires really.

What is the difference between an animal and us then? Something spiritual? They are born, live, and die the same as us.

I beg to differ, Ron. Cows have...hearts, lungs, red blood, muscles, eyes, hair/fur, skeletal structures that utilize ribs, backbones, four limbs, tails... They have brains and their own societies, they teach their young...

Nah, you're right. They're completely different from us.

*says the blatant omnivore*

So do animals. They just think differently. They're fully aware of their own existence; they fear their own deaths, just as we do. They feel pain. They are aware of their surroundings.

And instincts would mean absolutely nothing if there wasn't intelligence to back them up. Self-preservation is meaningless if one doesn't know what to (and what not to) fear. All creatures learn over the generations how to survive.

Contrary to popular belief, it isn't instinct that drives migratorial birds to flock to warmer climes during the winter... Somehow, sometime a great long time ago, they figured out to fly away from where the cold winds blew. They developed flight paths over generations of learning. We know this for fact, because as humans make more and more urban developments, migratorial birds are becoming more and more confused every winter.

But they adapt, and they learn to work around us, or they fail to thrive. Harsh? Cruel? Probably. But as a species, they will learn how to do what's necessary in an ever-changing world, and they will grow again.

This is nature at its finest and its worst.

And it demonstrates that despite whatever level humans want to set themselves on, they/we are no different than any of the other animals around us.

We are all learning to survive in an ever-changing world. We just all have different ways of doing it.

EDIT:

Many nonhuman animals also have at least rudimentary language skills. Otherwise, you could never teach dogs verbal commands, birds would not be as societal as they are, and dolphins and whales would have no need to make any sounds at all, beyond the sonar that helps them find prey.

My family's cats used to get our dog to open the back door and let them out...or to open the fridge, so they could see what's for dinner. That is, until she learned that she was the one to get in trouble for opening those doors. She stopped opening doors for cats, after that.

Ron Caliburn wrote:A cow is an animal. We aren't.

Really beginning to enjoy this line of conversation, another blatant omnivore with carnivore leanings, and not to be to evil, but as a movie villian put once, Humans aren't animals, we are parasites, viruses. Strictly speaking, humans are animals...mammals...primates.

Ron Caliburn wrote:If you really beleive that KT, how could you ever eat meat or wear a leather coat?

The answer is, you don't. You know, if only instinctively, that soemthign seperates us from the animals. It may not be a scientific reason that seperaes us from them, it might be something spiritual, but it exists and your own choices show you know this to be so.

Bearshaman . . . I haven't been in Vegas in a while, but you do make me feel like taking the trip.

Now, now Ron. I didn't make that quote, its from The Matrix. No need to add a wolf-skin rug to your collection.

I respect your desire to eliminate all threats to humanity, but I am not a threat....and from the sounds of it, neither is Celeste.

Now Ron... we all know that human flesh is toxic and unhealthy to eat.

Or to be more disgusting... it's only social mores that keep us from canabalism, not instinct. We are preditors, all of us.

We define certain actions as evil because they put our tribe (humanity) at risk if they run rampant. Canabalism, Necromancy... These things can be benign, but are harmfull taken to extremes. Thus, we label it as evil in all levels, rather than risk a light use turning to a heavy one.

Ron Caliburn wrote:If you really beleive that KT, how could you ever eat meat or wear a leather coat?

The answer is, you don't.

Actually, the answer is, the same way my ancestors did it. My Cherokee, Scandinavian, and Celtic ancestors all felt very close ties to nonhuman animals. The Cherokee, just like many Native Americans, called all living creatures their "brothers".

Yet they ate meat, used skins for clothes and shelter, and we hardly question that. Of *course* they needed to... They didn't have the proper tools to make buildings of heavy stone and concrete, with wooden or iron supports. They didn't have abundant crops that would feed everyone all year 'round.

I have the tail of a fox and the flesh of a bull, which I use to call to the spirits of the deceased, and respectfully request to borrow their forms for a short time. (I have a falcon feather, too, but aside from the potential question of the legality of owning it, I doubt anyone's going to argue that one. The only reason that it functions as it does is because it was a gift to me from the falcon.)

I eat meats, it's true...and that's a discussion Willie and I had, recently. While I find the conditions of many stockyards and slaughterhouses to be deplorable, I recognize that there is nothing I can do to change that. There is nothing I can do to make life or death better or easier for any of those creatures, and it both pisses me off and saddens me that I can't...for as long as people would rather save money off the price of meat (God forbid anyone ask them to give it up), there will always be deplorable stockyards and slaughterhouses, functioning cheaply, and taking lives cheaply.

But these creatures are born, raised, and killed for a purpose. My ancestors say that there are few evils greater than needless waste. My philosophical morals say to never allow a life to be taken in vain. I will try to find a company that sells more properly handled meats, but in the meantime, I will continue to eat what I can afford, handling it with respect, and sending my prayers to the spirits of those that died to feed me.

For the record, if everyone in America turned purely vegetarian, our farms wouldn't hold out terribly long, either...so while I respect the views and outlooks that vegetarians have (except for Vegans)...for me, it is not a viable option, because it is the same as doing nothing.

Once I have the power to start fixing the problem, believe you me, I will be doing so.

In the meantime, Ron... What about Mr. Fluffers? It seems to me that between the two of us, you are the one stepping on your ideals. I know you have a great deal of respect for him, yet you officially espouse these views? That makes little to no sense to me...

C'mon guys. If you want to debate this, could you move it to another thread? This was supposed to be relatively light, given the junk we've all had to deal with lately.

o_o

I'm so sorry. I guess I got wrapped up in the debate. That happens too damned easily with me.

Just smack me next time.

And Ron, you do know my opinion of you hasn't changed, right? I'm opinionated, not judgmental...

I would like to say one thing.

Murder is the way of nature. I know at first that comment sounds... probably extremely evil, but I have a point.

When you got out to a forest, and you see it in all its radiant glory, murder is all around you. Now, we all label it as survival, but in the end, it is what it is. And in truth, we favor it. (Now I've really gone off the deep end, eh?)

Say you're walking through this forest, and you come across two pine-trees sitting side by side. One grows tall and proud, stretching into the morning sky to soak up the sun and all its radiant glory, siphoning its energy from that limitless source of life over 83 million miles away. The one beside it is smaller, and dull brown in places, bent and slightly gnarled with its needles falling off in patches. Now, which one would you more like to look at?

The healthy tree has its branches intermingled with the smaller one, and you can tell that their root systems are too close together. The bigger one litterally has the smaller one in a stranglehold, and in a few years (a few moments in the lifetime of a tree) the smaller one will be dead wood.

Just as the tree murders to survive, the herbivore murders the plant to survive, and just as the herbivore murders the plant, the carnivore kills the herbivore... and so on.

All in all, humans are the highest grossing killers of all time. We are the most advanced predators on the planet. We learn, we think, we make tools, we adapt, we create tactics and strategies... all so we can kill our food faster, as well as each other. Not even apes, savage as they are and can be, are as bad as we are in that regard. The smarter we get the worse we are to each other. Ever noticed that?

In the end, we're all quite similar. STFU.

Way to steal from Goodkind Razor, or should I say Zedd?

Anyhow, I agree.

Oh and KT,

"...you do know my opinion of you hasn't changed, right? I'm opinionated, not judgmental..."

I can debate a point to death with someone and leave it all in whatever topic we were debating. That's the best thing about not resorting to ad hominem attacks when arguing a point.

It's been requested we move that to a different thread. I would love to rebut that one, though.

How 'bout this, for the time being... I have known some people who are completely convinced that they're more than just "otherkin". They're convinced that they truly ARE faeries, or werewolves, or vampires, or whatever. One person that Adama and I met claimed to be a vampire, able to fly, needing to feed on blood to survive, etc...right after we'd all been to the Chinese food place in the mall before sundown.

I've heard of similar...for lack of a better term, "paranormal stupidities"...for fae, werewolves, and dragons, too. Anybody else had any run-ins like that?

Sorry, goodkind is one of my faves, and really it makes a lot of sense. I just borrowed it.

Sorry.

No worries, just give your sources in the future haha. Ok, someone go make a new thread for us to pollute.