Where's the Proof?

[Tanya Starling]

I know it is not my place to pry into these personal matters, but does thing happen often. If I wanted to watch a lot of high school drama I can easily go back to watching "Glee". Again, I am sorry for my emotional outburst, high school was not a very pleasant time in my life and I would prefer not to relive it.

Now to honor Phoenix's wishes we should perhaps get back on topic. I do believe that this particular topic was a bout finding proof of the existence of the supernatural and after careful though and deliberation I came to a simple conclusion; Does anyone her have any?

If we do have a descent amount of proof and physical evidence perhaps we should pool our individual resources and share what we do have with one another. I am always willing to share what I have learned and have acquired over the years, and I have acquired some rather interesting evidence; artifacts, relics, books, scrolls, photographs, video footage, audio recordings, first hand sworn testimony, and other miscellaneous pieces of physical evidence that might surprise you.

The most interesting piece of physical evidence I have is an ultrasound photograph of a demon baby while in utero I acquired some time ago. Perhaps that is how I got started in all of this.

I do suppose there are those individuals out there who could attempt to debunk each piece of evidence regardless of no matter how much evidence is presented before them. More is the challenge I suppose, one I would not mind taking up for I do so love a challenge.

Well I look forward to working closely with each of you, and perhaps we will have a chance to meet person soon.

[Phoenix]

If you're offended by what you see you may either choose not to read the posts or friend/foe individuals. Then you won't have to apologize for any more emotional outbursts. Everything here is optional, no one requires that anyone read everything. Pick and choose and skip what you don't like.

As for how often it happens, it can vary. Cybermancer and skeptic were engaged in a debate, which is fine and happens often amongst scientists who don't agree. They weren't attacking each other, they were attacking each others ideas.

In between that, Holister slipped in some attacks against the actual person, Cybermancer. I even let it slide. But when he did it again after closing the public debate? Nah, that wasn't cool and he got called out on it. When the two people having a debate stop, continued attacks on one of them just is not appropriate unless they want to be attacked themselves.

This is not one big happy family. It is a group of people who come here to discuss the supernatural. Some of them agree and some don't. Some work together and some don't. Some get along and some don't.

If it bothers you, don't engage. Obviously it doesn't bother me but then I haven't always been a very nice person.

The purpose of this thread is not about finding the proof, despite the thread title. It has more to do with why the proof, of which most us have seen, hasn't been accepted by the main stream. I apologize if the title was misleading. Old habits die hard.

A lot of people here have what they consider to be proof of the supernatural. It's the main reason they're here. Skeptic disagrees that their proofs are valid and he is entitled to debate his position. I did not and have not called him out on that because despite how I feel about his position, he was presenting it honestly.

I'm sure there are many people who would like to share whatever information you can provide. There are many here who will be happy to share what they have. I often make posts relaying things I have learned over the years.

The problem, and what I am attempting to look at here, is that while we have evidence and share it, getting the mainstream scientific community or the public at large to accept it is difficult. Victor Lazlo in his day, had some success with the public if not the mainstream scientific community.

This is why I posted in the Conspiracy section. There is no known, definite cause for this. We have our opinions and even conspiracy theories on it however.

If you have specific information you'd like to share with the community, I would invite and encourage you to post some of it, perhaps in Community Outreach. Or if it's direct experiences you wish to share, then in War Stories.

I hope this has helped you understand the situation and how the community works, even when it's not in agreement.

As a special aside, don't take what Grace was doing too seriously. Skeptic and her are friends but they seem to enjoy poking each other publicly. So far as I know, they remain friends despite apparent conflict. In short, Grace teases people she likes.

[Holister]

Greetin's

I would actually like to see some of this evidence you have Ms. Starling. It sounds like it would be interestin'. I know I'm just some back woods sheriff, but I also have been dealin' with the supernatural for some time now, I've also been a member here with the Society for some time too witha couple of connections, so if you are looking for help just drop me a line and I'll see if I can help ya'll out.

[Cybermancer]

Supernatural suppression of research has been touched on but I think can be expanded on more.

Many have reported encounters with what they assumed to be government agents dressed in black suits, often wearing shades. They are widely known as the Men in Black. It is possible that they are in fact government agents.

There have been other reports of these so called Men in Black acting oddly, in ways that appear inhuman to the observers. Some have even claimed the use of hypnosis or report memory loss over the incidents.

The possibility of supernatural Men in Black is quite disturbing. If they exit then one must wonder what connection if any they have with legitimate government? Have they infiltrated the government (or governments)? Or are they merely pursuing their own objectives.

If the government has been infiltrated by supernatural beings who are actively suppressing knowledge then we could find ourselves fighting a resistance war.

What if a secret war is already underway between the government, shadow government and supernatural infiltrators? Such a scenario is the stuff of nightmares.

[Ron Caliburn]

I've directly had a hand in destroying supernatural infiltrators of the government. It's not implausible that there are more.

As for suppression of proof, I think that's come from multiple sources. Some do it innocently, some do it as a well meaning but intentional deceit and some are definitely trying to keep humanity helpless in the face of a looming threat.

[Tanya Starling]

That sounds dreadful. The thought of some secret organization centered on the premise of suppressing research and investigation into the supernatural is quite disturbing. It sounds like something the church would be behind, though I have heard stories.

[Last Moon]

The murder of my patron and the theft of the database compiled from my research last year give me little reason to doubt that there is a deliberate effort to suppress our knowledge about the supernatural. Given the specific nature of my research (therianthropes) and the alleged nature of my patrons death (an animal attack of some kind) I can only assume that therianthropes were responsible for what occurred.

[Holister]

There is an option 2 with that attack, it could have been made to look like a theri-whats-it attack. Maybe an attempt at misdirection by another group to put one against the other while the real threat is hidin' in the shadows waitin' for the the first two to finish each off. Just sayin' it wouldn't be the first time.

[Athena]

I hope your database is recovered and returned to you, Last Moon.

[Holister]

Information can be recovered, just be glad you're still around to recover it. I know first hand a thing or two bout' werewolves and such, if you ever need help, feel free to PM me.

[Kolya]

In my experience with the government it's just not fruitful research. What the government prefers to do now is find and employ people with paranormal abilities rather than study them. That's not to say that governments are not into weird research, as I am living proof that they are.

[Holister]

Glad to see you still alive an kickin' Kolya ol' buddy. Heard a rumor you and your team may been dead. Glad it's not true.

[Kolya]

Not more than me, I'm sure.

Thanks Holister. Be careful in Italy. Sounds like The Reckoning is at hand for you.

[Holister]

Thanks Koyla, I'll definitely try but I make no promises. Its the Alps after all, I figure a nice hike through the mountains, grab some lasagna, and maybe visit Rome when I'm all done.

PS: What's the Reckoning? and is it expensive?

[Kolya]

I'm afraid that's for you to find out.

If you're going into the alpine make sure you spend a couple of days acclimating so you aren't suffering from altitude sickness or unusually poor decision making.

[Holister]

If you're going into the alpine make sure you spend a couple of days acclimating so you aren't suffering from altitude sickness or unusually poor decision making.

Poor decision making, hum, isn't that sort of my thing. But I will seriously take that advise under advisement.

[Phoenix]

Government research can be a tricky beast at the best of times. When it's secret and poorly understood it gets that much worse. However, I have seen signs of government research on the subject. Possibly widespread research.

It's interesting to note that Washington D.C. is always a hotbed of various types of paranormal activity. That is because there are forces that would very much like to infiltrate the U.S. government (and others). They have some success from time to time and to varying degrees. There does seem to be something going on behind the scenes, keeping the government just ahead of the curve on this one.

Or maybe it's just luck.

[Holister]

Not the government. Someone else. Government doesn't believe this stuff exists, or at least they do not want to. A single secret international organization monitors, studies, and investigates the serious occult and supernatural activities worldwide; and if they have to neutralize any hostile threats. Think Interpol but for the occult.

[Kolya]

I said "unusually" for a reason, Holister.

[Holister]

Yup, I know.

[Phoenix]

The government claims not to believe but they are much more active in the supernatural than they publicly admit. That includes research, engaging the paranormal and turning an occasional blind eye to the activities of civilian hunters.

As for the so called Men in Black, it is unclear if they're government, shadow government or supernatural in origin. It could be the myths surrounding them come from all three sources explaining why reports seem contradictory.

There may be a link between supernatural Men in Black (MiB) and the so called Black Eyed Children (BEC).

[Kolya]

I'm living proof that governments are involved. I've never seen a man in black, besides myself, but the only people who have to worry generally aren't people at all.

[Last Moon]

Unfortunately one of the complications in my research has always been the separation of bonafide animal attacks from attacks by therianthropes.

I have long suspected that one or more organizations have attempted to provide cover for the activities of therinthropes by popularizing stories of legitimate animal attacks and producing studies providing alternate explanations.

For example, a rise in encounters between humans and big cats is being blamed on Canine Distemper Virus (example here). The Animal Planet channel is even running a special on it in appropriately sensationalist terms.

The example from the video is an attack I strongly believe was actually perpetrated by a therianthrope. Note the long distance the tiger tracked the hunter over, survived being shot and returned to finish the job. Even if a virus was responsible for the aggressive behavior, no virus is going to allow a tiger to shrug off being shot.

However, thanks to the fine folks at Animal Planet, in the public consciousness, such attacks will now evermore be linked to this virus and it will become harder and harder for people like me to find leads to legitimate encounters.

While my research into other fields of the paranormal is limited, I have no doubt similar misdirection has and continues to occur based on my readings here.

[Phoenix]

An example of how the government hides their planning.

[Kermode]

Bureaucracies are strange creatures. By their design they are made to disseminate information to those that need it. In their function they generally block information from going where it would be useful.

Given the multiple layers of bureaucracy that composes the typical national government, is it not plausible that multiple branches of that government could be involved with paranormal phenomena and never even be aware of each other? Is it not also plausible that they may have competing agendas?

[Phoenix]

It is entirely possible.

[Ron Caliburn]

Possible? It's beyond likely. My family has been caught in the government's internal struggles before.

[Tms3]

Theirs anther reason why grants and funding for this tip of Research is I do not see how a pci power, or a magic spell or effect can be used to get a patent or a copyright. With out that you cant market an invention or posses. And with out that it is vary hard to use it for your profit. Even in the realm of govt grants it can be hard to show an upside for human kind with out a down side for those who hold patents for medication, or medical tech, or medical techniques. IF I can use magic or a psi power to heal a weak or damaged heart, or grow you a new liver or kidney. Why would you go to a surgeon of that? and the govt makes money off of surgeons... but not of folk healers

[Kermode]

The proof is all around. The problem is, in our quest to bind the universe with laws and theories, we forgot that human creations could never truly contain or explain something so infinite.

[Cybermancer]

The proof is all around. The problem is, in our quest to bind the universe with laws and theories, we forgot that human creations could never truly contain or explain something so infinite.

I'm disinclined to agree that we can't ever explain the infinite mysteries all around us, only that we haven't done so yet.