.600 is just way too large a round for derriger type all and uses a very slow burning powder because they are a low pressure round.

A 45-70, 445 Supermag, or 50 S&W mag is about the largest round that is fireable from a repeating pistol, in terms of muzzle energy. I did have a customer commision a .458 winchester pop out that strapped to his fore arm. When he pulled his had all the way back, it would pop forward several inches and, doing it again would fire it.

We tested it and it the only way to guarentee a hit was too stick the barrel rightup against whatever you were shooting at. It also got hot enough to burn the inside of his wrist.

Ron, if you want to not get the funny looks from the other gunsmiths for "odd" requests - get into the movie biz. Odd requests are the norm, and nobody thinks anything of them!

If you say so, that's why I leave the design and build to real experts, I just shoot em.

Wasn't looking for repeating capability, just as much knockdown as I can fit literally up my sleeves - and I wasn't kidding about them being for grappleing ranges, if I have to use them, I intend on having barrel to skin ranges. It's for those particularly big boys we don't know how to hurt when they decide to pick a person up and gnosh on em - broken wrists beats missing body parts. As long as it's the maximum stopping power you guys say can be sleeved either as a derringer break action, or a strapped on tube gun, I'll your word for it. (a break action is easier to work on for you guys, right?)

I like the shotguns, they'll do nicely I think.

On the hold outs, what's critical isn't the ability to wound the target, nor the condition of my wrists afterword (although being in one piece afterward is definately a plus). What's important as that the violence of the impact moves the target by the maximum amount allowable by the physics involved.

I'm not expecting airtime from the target, although I will admit the faint hope was there. I'm looking for the ability to rock the target, to unbalance and stagger it, mebbe even put it on it's ass if I'm that lucky.

I do understand newton's third law, I also understand that some weapons, particularly those with larger slower moving peices of lead apply a much better knock-down force than a much faster slightly smaller peice of lead.

Shock effect can work to stun or knock over a normal living person. Its basically a short circuit of the nervous system by the trauma. You basically stun the person like with a knockout punch.

Large, flat faced, slow to medium velocity bullets have the greatest shock effect.

Joe Smith wrote:Shock effect can work to stun or knock over a normal living person. Its basically a short circuit of the nervous system by the trauma. You basically stun the person like with a knockout punch.

Large, flat faced, slow to medium velocity bullets have the greatest shock effect.

Yes, but what is being discussed here is kinetic force, not biological effects. Biological effects that occur in humans may not occur the same way or at all in non-human (or even non-organic) targets.

Logan is looking for a kinetic blow that will knock down a target that is much larger than a human. Mr. Caliburn is right, what he wants is explosives.

Joe, thanks, that clears up a bit of the confusion. I always thought that the "sit down" from my 1911 was just kinetic in it's cause.

I was thinking about the rifle launched batons, and bean-bag rounds that police use for riot controll, and hoping for something with a similar effect in a smaller package.

I know the effect can be achieved, I just don't know if it's possible to get it into something that I could use in the field.

If the regulations on aquireing explosives through civilian sources weren't so stringent, I'd be asking for something with a shaped charge designed for impact rather than penetration.

Be careful when looking to induce purely biological effects observed in humans and other creatures against targets that they may not be relevant to. Even physical, kinetic effects may not always work the way you want or would normally expect.

Knowing the exact nature of the target would make advising on the type of munition easier.

I am not at liberty to publicly discuss details of an upcoming operation.

I am however at liberty to conduct said operations how I see fit including the use of outside talent.

Caliburn, the breifcase piece and the shotguns are a go, they'll meet the mission requirements for that job nicely as described.

Again, damnit. Well, then I guess go for the most kinetic transfer you can put in a break action hold out.

By the way, the last local bloodsucker I saw was wearing a vest with a trauma plate, had to pump a clip into him from the side to make him drop Eddie. Watch your ass out there, I don't like it when the enemy starts adapting to us.

Trauma plates won't stop a high powered rifle round. And if there's a use for the .50 DE, that would be it.

Trauma plates won't stop most high powered piston rounds. They just punch through if they don't have a soft nose bullet.

And if they don't puch through, you simply push the plate into the target several inches as it deforms. I don't know if that will stop a bloodsucker, but it might get its attention.

Silver rounds are harder than lead and have much better penetration unless you aneal them to dead soft. Does silver work on vamps?

I'm not a weapon's smith by any means but there is a 30mm grenade launched by a 9mm cartridge.

It is normally fired by this Soviet weapon system or alternately this weapon system.

The whole rig would probably take up your entire forearm and you'd need a pretty wide sleeve to conceal it and still be able to fire. On the plus side, it would have the recoil of a 9mm with a blast able to punch through 10mm of armor. Definitely a soft skinned vehicle stopper if you get the engine. I don't know explosives but I imagine it might knock a person off their feet with the explosive charge.

The geniuses here might be able to start with this concept and turn it into something really workable.

Joe, problem is the round needs to stay in the target, if you puch through vests, you tend to overpenetrate.

Nemesis, that is beautifull. You keep teasin me like that and we may have to arrange a face to face and some range time.

Think you gents can come up with something based on that? If the legalities on the explosives is an issue, let me know - I'm sure I can send an appropriately papered powder-monkey to perform the fill and proper federal packaging for transport of the finished product.

Meh. The recoil from the .357 is manageable and if it's an issue, there are things that can be done to lower it. I was pointing it out as a starting point. Considering that it was made with technology from before I was even born, I'm sure more could be done with less, such as a 20mm explosive.

As a contact weapon, he'll certainly lose his arm but with body armor he might survive the explosion. Especially from a shaped charge.

Given what he wants to use it against and the scenerio he's envisioning, a lost arm and a slim chance of survival is better than none at all.

For myself, I'll be sticking to ranged weapons. If nothing else, they provide a decent head start when the running starts.

Nice timing, Nemesis

Could the charge be shaped in such a manner that the blast is all channeled one direction?

If not, I'd still like the launcher up my sleeve (if the tube sticks past the cuff, the grenade doesn't have to fit right?), and a shaped charge / EFP grenade for it along with a specialized frag I came across.

Not sure if I can describe these well enough but here goes. Explosive core, tightly wrapped in iron wire braid, diameter close to that of a clothes hangar, looks like the casing was then dipped in molten silver before repeating the process with copper wire.

You know, if you fire the explosive projectile at about 10ft, it's still pretty much point blank. And that's about as far as it's going to be accurate anyway.

If you're wearing body armor, you stand a better chance of survival at ten feet then if the target is literally on top of you. I mean, there's no guarantee that you'd survive at that range but some chance is better than none. Firing from behind cover would be ideal, of course.

At point blank range, you're definitely losing your arm and probably winding up dead. There is a chance of surviving but those chances are for those who like playing the Power Ball lottery. And we all know there's no way to guarantee success at that, right?

But then, if you're like me and just want one last chance to hurt the enemy before dieing, then your survival need not be a factor that the designer worries about. But then why be worried about knock back, right?

Realistically, if the thing you described to me is ten feet away, you're going to want to start knocking it back right away as you may well be within it's arm reach by that point.

I'm not a weapons designer but my practical experience with weapons suggests that you may want to adjust your intended tactic a little bit to accommodate what can be done with existing technology.

Caliburn, I'd still like something with that grenade launcher though - it looks like it could fill several of the roles of an RPG-7 in a much more concealable device, especially after you have your way with it.


Nemesis believe me, I am adjusting tactics, normally before it's even implimented and tried. Ive gone from a heavy slug, to explosives, to looking like I'll have to try a K-bar if the thing gets it's mitts on me.

Oh and lets just say meeting a few ladies like yourself has had me in the habit of keeping "protection" handy if not on at all times.

Realisticly, doll, if that thing gets within 10 feet of me, I'm probably already snatched unless it's hands are full.

Interesting note, an australian firm has a formula it uses to win lotteries at will - when the value reaches a certain point, this firm buys a ticket for each possible combination, thereby insuring that they recieve the winnings.