A Discussion to everyone's benefit (philosophy)

[Shang Li]

Sifu Long, i hereby callenge you to a debate about the buddhas and our respective viewpoints. With any luck as we hold the debate and strive for the greater ungerstanding the points we bring up will cause others to seek enlightenment. (i have not had a good buddhist debate since i left japan and want to make sure the mind and wit are still sharp)

[Willie Long]

I accept your challenge, Roshi Li, and share your hope that, like the lighthouse in the Society's logo, our discussion guides the unenlightened.

Perhaps we can begin with the first precept, "As the Buddha refrained from killing until the end of his life, so I too will refrain from killing until the end of my life."

Does that mean the Society's hunters must refrain from destroying monsters?

I believe it does not.

Consider the dybbuk. My fight with one ended when a blow seemed to shatter it into hundreds of insects, which wandered away.

Similar results can be found in every Society encounter with any number of diverse beings; it is clear to this monk that we are disrupting these things, not killing them.

Please honor us with your discerning consideration.

[Shang Li]

The honor is mine Sifu Long, it has been too long since i have had such a discourse.


To reach the enlightenment of the buddha we must not kill even the most foul of beings. Of course Siddhartha Gautama would have been able to cause his foes to seek redemption by his mere presence. I try not to kill even my opponents in battle - but i am not yet willing to have my time on earth end in order to give another more time to strive for enlightenment, especially when they do not seek it at all.

Does the monk allow the farmer to lose his livestock so that the predator can live and eat free?

As for our not killing the beings we fight - do we truly kill a man when we break his body?



PS
Nice hit on the dybbuk - they don't go down easy even to a good blade
I look forward to this continued discourse. (i have not had this much to meditate on in years - i do thank you)

[Willie Long]

Naw, Jack, a man truly dies when one breaks his spirit.

**
These beings discorporate, which may or may not be death at all. (There are historical reports of named beings returning after discorporation.) Humans, however, simply die.

I must place certainty before conjecture, so I train my student defenders to shirk not from discorporating their alien opponents.

**
The monk should teach the farmer ways to protect his livestock without killing, but ultimately the precepts are guidelines, not commandments.

**
Dybbuk aren't very good fighters, but they tough. It took me almost thirty seconds to defeat it.

[Shang Li]

These beings discorporate, which may or may not be death at all. (There are historical reports of named beings returning after discorporation.) Humans, however, simply die.

So when the body ceases function that is the end?

I must place certainty before conjecture, so I train my student defenders to shirk not from discorporating their alien opponents.

Allowing harm to come to pass that one can prevent is the same as doing that harm ones self.

The monk should teach the farmer ways to protect his livestock without killing

When the tiger cannot be persuaded to stop eating the villagers, either the tiger or the village must be destroyed

Dybbuk aren't very good fighters, but they tough. It took me almost thirty seconds to defeat it

impressive with the bare hands - the last one i battled wound up being something SirRobin would have appreciated - it refused every chance to seek redemption (first the hand that grabbed me - a chance to depart in peace, then the other hand as it threw another punch - followed by another chance ect...)


Why are Western demons so often stongly affected by the words of their god, while those at home so often commit their attrocities with mantras flowing from their lips?

[KonThaak]

Why are Western demons so often stongly affected by the words of their god, while those at home so often commit their attrocities with mantras flowing from their lips?

If I may be so bold as to intrude, I may be able to answer this one. (And I hope you may find that druidry is not so different from Buddhism; there are fewer names and texts to quote, but our ideals are often the same, or very close to one another.)

Western demons are seen by most people as beings spurned by the Judeo-Christian-Islamic ideal of "God". As such, it is their very strong belief that the name of their God should have a strong impact on the well-being of the demons they face.

I don't wish to spark a controversial debate, so I won't say that they are right or wrong in their beliefs, but I will say this... As both of you know, the power of human belief is incredible. At the very least, the beliefs of westerners empowers them over the demons they face when they use the name of their God, and believe themselves to be in the right.

It is a form of magic that has been done so long, that regardless of whether there is truth behind the beliefs, projecting one's soul into the name of God will affect any demonic entity...and likewise, those same demons find anything to do with the J-C-I God to be foul.

A similar effect happened over the Swastika, but in reverse... It was once a rune of power and justice; now, its meaning has been so perverted by the events of World War II, that now it is a symbol of hate and bigotry, and of ill-gotten power. A mage attempting to use it for righteous ends may end up finding more problems than he bargained for.

[Ron Caliburn]

To reach the enlightenment of the buddha we must not kill even the most foul of beings.

Tha's fine, while you're doing that us unenlightend folk will see to protecting the women and children.

[Shang Li]

i dont recall claiming to be a buddha Mr Caliburn. Untill i gain the ability to cause the most foul of beings to have a change of heart by my mere presense, i shall have to prevent them from doing harm.

Allowing harm to come to pass that one can prevent is the same as doing that harm ones self.

[Ron Caliburn]

But if your ultimate goal is to avoid the destruction of even an evil being, how can you truely protect good?

As long as evil exists it will need to be destroyed to protect the good and innocent.

As long as that is the case folks like me will have to stalk the night to find the nightstalkers.

[KonThaak]

The idea of Buddhism is that a Buddha--an Awakened One--can turn one's heart from the path of evil. That is why a Buddha need not kill an evil being, just guide them to the path of enlightenment.

While this may sound like ivory tower philosophical BS to you, Ron, it's an ideal that many Buddhists the world 'round strive towards. It doesn't mean that either Willie or Li-san would refrain from killing a vampire, lycanthrope, demon, or other nasty threatening an innocent, but rather that they strive towards a state where they no longer need to.

As for me...I no longer even believe in "good" and "evil", anymore. There's too much subjectivity involved. There are forces of great benevolence and kindness, and there are forces of great malevolence and hatred. Most people, regardless of whether they deal with the supernatural, have at least a little of both in them.

You and I are no exceptions. We both know what it is to feel rage, and to go off half-cocked at things we know to be wrong and unjust.

It's hard for me to imagine most people as "innocents"--children notwithstanding. Most people can go from nice, polite, upstanding citizens who would help an elderly person cross the street at a moment's notice...to rude, violent, angry, screaming asswipes because they have to wait a whole ten minutes to be paid their money at the casino, or because a truck pulled into their lane of traffic on the road.

So to talk about "innocents" who aren't children...my jaded mind has to reconcile what seems like a logical inconsistency. They aren't "innocent" because they are good or lack evil... They are "innocent" because they have nothing to do with the paranormal, and for that reason alone, don't deserve death at the hands of the monsters we fight.

It's not an admission I am proud to make, but I'm not exactly proud of the people I protect. My wife and I see the best and the worst in them every day. I just don't like to talk about it.

[Ron Caliburn]

Yeah it is all shades of gray, but for me the big factor is if they make victims of people or not.

People who victimize tend to not get a much better reception from me than the monsters. The key difference is our law enforcment agences have policies for dealing with folks like that, they got nothing to deal with the monsters - which is my job.

But still, the pimps in my neighbourhood know not to mistreat their girls or to recruit them too young. The thugs in my neighbourhood . . . well they have left my neighbourhood. The drug dealers in my neighbourhood . . . well them I lump with the monsters.

[Celeste Darken]

When the tiger cannot be persuaded to stop eating the villagers, either the tiger or the village must be destroyed

But there is also a technique where villagers can outwit the tiger by wearing a mask on the back of their heads; it looks like they have two faces, and the tigers are often unsure of which direction to attack in. Eventually, the tigers leave the village alone.

[Shang Li]

Well spoke, Ms. Darken, Sifu Long has chosen well (in spite of your physiological "challenges"). I conceed the discussion to your temple and it's representatives.

I look forward to many such discussions as time wears on and we begin to weary of the world.

[Willie Long]

Forgive me, Roshi, for not responding sooner. This monk will be off-line for the forseeable future, and regrettably unavailable to receive your learned instruction.

Perhaps my young student would be willing to continue in my stead?

[KonThaak]

Willie, is everything okay? What's pulling you offline?

[Willie Long]

Work and school, yo. We got some hot leads on some shitheads that need to be in lockdown. Add in the post-holiday surge in students at the temple, and I be hoppin' Jack.

[Bert_the_Turtle]

Try and check in from time to time so we know you're allright.

[Willie Long]

Do my best.

[Bert_the_Turtle]

You'd better, especially with all the especially weird and dangerous shit going on.