Religious Discussion

[Cybermancer]

I'm creating this thread to respond to the following, rather than continue to derail another thread.

Cybermancer,

I am sorry I should choose my wording with more care. It is not really any Religion its self that I have a problem with (pervaded it does not demand you hurt people) it is more the strange things that some flowers of said religion do with it, I understand the tenets of most religions call for personal accountably but it seems that some people don't like that. I know a Caltilic priest who told me that the devil can not make any one do any thing they do not want to do. well the devil may have planted the idea, it was the person in question whom decided to act on the idea

Do please be careful with your wording, Tms3. Perhaps you're not aware of it but you often come off as hostile towards the Abrahamic religions. This doesn't directly offend me as I don't practice any religion. If it wasn't for the fact that I've had direct encounters with deity entities, I would likely be an atheist. As it stands, I'm a secular humanist.

It sounds to me that what you have a problem with, is not Christians but rather fundamentalists. Every religion has such people. In fact, such people exist independent of religion. Essentially these are people who feel it is their duty or right to tell others what to do and how to live.

Such people use the words should and not a great deal. You should not eat meat. You should not wear fur. You should not read Harry Potter. You should not have sex with this person or that person. The world is full of people willing to tell you what you should or should not do.

It's like my god-father always said. Anyone who is trying to teach what to think is trying to control you. Anyone who is trying to teach how to think is trying to free you.

From your comments Tms3, I suspect that it is these sorts of people that you object to. If that is so, then it is something we have in common.

As for accountability, as with people who would control you, this is a personal issue, not a cultural or organizational paradigm. Most cultures and organizations have some form of accountability as part of the structure. It is individuals who either accept responsibility for their actions or not. Again it seems this is the gist of what you're saying.

Personally, I think we would be better off without deity entities and the religions they spawn. But I would never go so far as to tell anyone they should not worship in a way they see fit.

Of course, I may be biased. I have something of a personal grudge against at least one of these entities.

[Tms3]

I can see what your saying. I have a feeling that most of these divine entities as you call them. Are taking a hands off aproche right now. and when you look at the myths and writings of the world religions, you find this was not always the case. The only think I can guess is they took care of and guided us in or infentcy as a spices. And then they stood back and got out of the way to let us grow into adults. Part of learning to be an adult is learning to stand on your own.

Also I think you are right about that. It is not the Religions for say I have a problem with. I have no issue what so ever with the 10 commandments. (though I do find it amusing that the Christians managed to distill the what is it 180 laws of mosses into 10 commandments) The 7 pillars of wisdom. or the laws of Mosses. any more then I have a problem with my own code the 9 noble virtues. The other thing that it seems most Religions have in common. other then the great flood. is that at some point god, or the gods send some one often simi-devine in and of him self and some times more then one.. and his message boils down to about the same regardless of where hes form... "Hay you all are being asses to each other stop it!"

[Shang Li]

There are members of each faith I have encountered who claim to be of that faith, but their actions are contrary to their words. I have encountered a few as well, who make no claim to great faith, yet their actions exemplify the teachings of the religion to which they are a member.

The message from the priest should be the message of the diety. The actions of the faithfull, should be the actions of the diety - isn't that supposed to be the duty of a preisthood?

[Hannah]

My own interactions with beings our ancestors once called Gods leads me to think that as we have had less use for them and cease our belief in them, their power was diminished. Especially when it comes to their power over us.

Perhaps, in the distant past, we did need their miracles and interventions to survive. Now, they seem to need us.

Hannah

[Tms3]

I have to say that I agree with you mr li, and for your thought it could be the othere way around maybe we have grown to where we have less need of them. as other then examples of what we want to be or do not want to be. We have a remorcable capabipabit in or selves for great good or great evil. but something else that most speak highly of is free will, I dont see how they could let us have that with out standing out of the way, intruth if they where invalving them selves overtly in our lives faith a free will are both meaningless

[Cybermancer]

On the subject of relationships between humanity and deity-entities, it probably won't come as any surprise that I have a few theories on the subject. Note that this commentary is of western religions, both Pagan and Abrahamic and not on the eastern ones which have different structure an beliefs.

There is the old story of Prometheus who brought humanity fire and was punished for it quite severely. While I don't think this story is at all true (more on that later), the 'moral' of the story is quite telling when looking at the psychology of these entities.

Fire is an essential and basic part of the survival of humanity. Yet sharing such a fundamental knowledge as the creation and use of fire is worthy of eternal torture and torment. This is not the actions of entities that are helping a species grow on its own. This reflects a mentality of withholding knowledge in order to have power over others. This is not an uncommon theme in western religions, both Pagan and Abrahamic.

In the story of the Tower of Babel, there is an explicit expression that if humanity were to be allowed to continue along the path they were on, humanity might actually become the equal of the hosts of heaven. So the languages of people were confused so that they fragmented and formed separate tribes. Seperate tribes that would later war upon each other. Thanks for that.

This is repeated in the story of Pandora's box where Pandora is tricked by Zeus in opening a box that will unleash all sorts of hardship on mankind so that they will never challenge the status of the gods. Of course we were able to retain hope and frankly, that may be enough. But it was done without the help of and in spite of the will of the gods.

In the Egyptian religion of antiquity, these entities convinced the locals that the Nile would not rise and fall without their intervention. That the sun itself would not rise without them. They are no longer worshipped to any great extent but the sun still rises and the Nile continues as it always has, except where humanity has intervened with dams and irrigation.

It goes on and on and I don't have the time or space to describe all the ways and times different religions have presented the exact same theme of withholding knowledge or taking credit for natural events or knowledge that they didn't have anything to do with.

I will however point out how little we have actually gained from these entities and how their claims of providing us with anything at all can be demonstrated as false, or at best as gifts with strings attached.

Let's start with fire, that Prometheus supposedly shared with us. Actually, before I get into fire, I have to discuss the rise of humanity as a species on this planet. Anatomical humans, that is humans that look as we do, started to appear as a distinct species from other archaic humans about 200,000 years. There is some debate as to when modern human behavior developed, although there seems to have been a dramatic change in how humans think and behave about 50,000 years ago.

So what does this have to do with fire? There is extremely strong evidence that before humanity arrived on the scene, our predecessors in the form of Homo Erectus was using fire 400,000 years ago. There is even evidence that they were not the first of the genus Homo to use fire. There are some who believe, and have supporting evidence that fire use started as far back as 1.7 million years ago. Humanity did not invent fire use nor was it shown to us. We inherited from our archaic ancestors.

I doubt very much that Prometheus or any such entity would endure eternal torture for giving apes fire.

Nor did any entity provide us with the knowledge and use of tools. The archaeological evidence shows a clear line of progression in the use of tools, all the way to the modern era. We have in our historical records of examples when leaps were made in the use of tools, during the age of colonization for example. But there are other examples of cross cultural contamination that allow us to recognize when it has happened.

The creation of pyramids on both sides of the Atlantic during different times and by different cultures is an example of different groups of humans developing similar technologies in different ways. The evidence in both cases shows a clear line of development without signs of outside interference or assistance. What we see is human ingenuity doing the same amazing things, independent of each other and of any 'help' from outside sources.

These entities did not create us. We evolved as all creatures native to this planet have. They did not give us either fire or tool use, both were inherited traits. So what do we need them for? What have we ever needed them for?

Magic? Surely the supernatural power of magic was bequeathed to us by the gods, right? There are examples we know about where magical power is granted directly by these entities. But it can also be learned and harnessed completely independent of them. Furthermore, new spells can be developed by creative and inventive human mages. What's more, known magic spells show the same logical progression as any type of technology.

While the archaeological evidence about magic is hard to analyze, we can examine the spells. Creating a spark seems like a first logical step for a hunter gathering society to develop as an useful ability. Then being able to fuel that spark into a full fledged flame. And then it's just another step to weaponize this ability.

It is not in the interest of entities to share the knowledge of creating our own magic with us. It is easier to control us if they grant us power and determine when we can use it and can take it away from us if we do not obey them. More signs of the attempts of these entities to control and limit us.

Maybe in the distant past some of these entities may have performed miracles on our behalf. I suspect the biggest miracle they've ever pulled is convincing us we needed them or accepting the patronizing idea that we are in any way their children. What love they have for us is most easily understood as a Sheppard for their flock. A resource to be exploited to its fullest.

[Tms3]

Well I cant really counter much that you have said. Though I will point out that in the case of fire... Fire was Zeus's power. so the resion Permithis was punished was for stealing Zeus's power and giving it to man. As for how man was created or born, it has never been said how this was done.

In the case of my own Religion man was born not Created and we are the youngest children of Danna notice I said youngest. if that is the case what happiness to the elder children. Well some are still with us we know them as the Sidhee. as for the other children... I would suspect they are or distant ancestors.

in a since of looking at the myths as a medifore which makes since in many ways. If we look at fire, we porbly learned of the use by watching lightning strikes, lighting comes form the sky so that could be seen as a gift form the goods, (pervied you where not struck by it) Iron. some of or fist iron, even steal and for a long time the best, was found in meater craters. Those rocks falling form space to earth could well have been seen also as being sent by the gods..

The Celts Creadet Wrighten langage to Orghom and he may have been the source of that holy language. Brigit is the Celtic goddess of poetry and isperation. Which might explain how some of or leaps in insight came from.

that is manly how I view My own gods, but I can see what your saying about many others.

[Hannah]

Zeus punishment of Prometheus and humans regarding the theft of fire (the events of the Pandora's Box myth is a direct result of the events of the Prometheus myth) does show that he didn't always have humanity's interests at heart. There is also an ancient Greek variant of the flood myth (in which Zeus set out to destroy all mankind, only ceasing the destruction when he saw the last survivors clustered on a hilltop, praying for mercy).

However Zeus' actions don't take place in a vacuum. Zeus had arisen to power by overthrowing and murdering his father Chronus. Chronus rose to power by overthrowing and murdering his father Uranus. Zeus had heard prophecies that one of his children (i.e. humanity) would eventually do the same to him.

So Zeus' actions do have an aspect of self-defense to them.

Hannah

[Cybermancer]

What sort of parent figure values it's own welfare over that of their children?

I will say this much about the prophesy of humanity killing Zeus. If I ever figure out how to make a god killing bullet, I'll give Ron as many as he can carry. And anyone else who wants some as well.

[Tms3]

interesting point Hannah, though why did Zeus try to destroy the human race. Zeus saw the human race practicing cannibalism. Which because of what Zeus's father did to his own brother. and what he did to his own first wife he hated above all other things. (Zeus ate his first wife because of a priphacy that the child she was carrying would destroy him. This resulted in Zeus observing some of her Qualtys it made him wiser and more compassiont [for him not that hard] and Athena springing form his fore head)

The other thing is that Divine entatys do not seem static the seem to change over time... some homecoming wiser and less vengeful some, some more so and some becoming seemingly insane

A counter point to the Pandora's myth is that by opening the box when where also given hope, (the last pixie) but also by releasing evil we gained free will, the ablaty to choose to be good or evil

[Clarity]

_____Hi, everybody. I don’t understand what you’re all talking about here. Is religion and church the same thing? Aren’t they good? They help people feel better, don’t they? If they tell me I shouldn’t lie or steal, does that mean they’re trying to control me? I feel better because I don’t lie or steal. Does that mean they’re still wrong? Why? Mr. Just Matt Too, how do you show people how to think?
_____P.S. Hi again, Shang. It’s so nice to see you. How are you? When I see you for reals next, may I give you a hug?

[Cybermancer]

About Pandora's Box: Hope was already there, it was prevented from escaping. Not because the gods wanted us to have it, but because we managed to hold onto it despite all the other problems caused by Zeus's plan. A plan that called for him to trick/decieve Pandora, meaning free will already existed.

Miss Grace,

Church and religion are tools. When used correctly, they can help people find a moral center, feel good, help others and even find inner strength. But what people need to remember is that they are tools created by people and as with any tool, can be used for harmful uses as well. So if going to church helps you not to lie or steal, then that's good. But yes, they are attempting to control you because they are telling you not to lie or steal. One might argue that not all types of control are bad. However, instead of telling someone not to lie or steal or they'll face some divine punishment, I would rather help someone understand why lieing and stealing are harmful and therefore should be avoided for the harm they cause.

And this is part of what I mean about showing people how to think. It is easy to say, "Don't steal, it's bad." That is telling you what to think. Sure it's a good thing to think but it is patronizing and falls short of showing someone how to think.

But the person doesn't know why it's wrong or bad. If the goal is to teach them how to arrive at ethical decisions, then what you want is to show them how to reach those decisions.

So why is stealing wrong, Clarity?

I can tell you how I came to the conclusion it was wrong. It is wrong because I am causing harm to another individual. I am denying a person the benefit of their own labors and property. I am doing something I wouldn't want done to me. I am doing something that is going to upset someone else. These things are undesireable because the other person will try and respond to my theft. If they catch me, they may try to punish me or cause others to do so. If I am caught, then my reputation will suffer. People will not trust me and will not like me. Even if I am not caught, there will be anxiousness that I may be caught. These are all negative consequences that I do not want to happen. I can analyze the situation critically, examine the possible outcomes of my actions and aim for positive results and attempt to avoid negative ones.

Once I understand how to look at a situation to look for negative and positive results, I no longer need someone to tell me to do something or not to do something. I examine the consequences and choose the course of action that will most likely result in a desireable outcome. So if I run into a situation where I haven't been told how to respond to, I can still respond based on my own judgement.

Learning how to think doesn't apply only to ethical decisions but to all aspects of life as well. It involves asking yourself a lot of questions, looking for information, weighing results and adjusting ones actions and reactions based on the changing situation.

All too often, people accept what they're told without consideration. They do not search for the truth, blindly doing what they're told without consideration for the consequences. This is a danger when the tools of religion are used incorrectly. People are told to do things that are not good and they do because that is what they are used to doing. The same problem exists for the institutions of government, the media and even science.

That is why it is critical to question everything we are told by everyone.

In the end, teaching someone to think is merely teaching them to always question and to always look for the truth. And to challenge everything said by any instituition.

You were thinking critically when you questioned me on my apparent stance on religion. Though I will say that I don't necessarily oppose religion though it is a tool I don't personally use. If it is a tool you wish to use for yourself, then certainly you should do so. But it is important that you use it properly. And in my opinion, that means questioning the things you hear, no matter who says them.

Sometimes trusting your feelings can be a good start. If something doesn't sound right, then start asking yourself and those around you why it doesn't until you understand the reason you are having these feelings.

Sometimes you should question, even when you aren't having strange feelings about something. It's good practice.

Another way of saying "Someone who tells you what to think is trying to control you. Someone who teaches you how to think is trying to free you." is "Don't do something because I tell you to. Do it because you've figured out for yourself it should be done."

I hope this has helped you understand. If not, ask more questions.

[Tms3]

yes and that brings in modern v.s old Religious teachings. look at how alot of old religions use to teach, the use of ligands, parables and other stories. yes they do give some kind of consince moral code. that can be a good or a bad thing. if it is used as a starting point or a guide. look at the laws of Moise for example. There are laws about what animals meat you can eat, how it should be raside and how it should be killed and butchered. even how it should be cooked. in short it is the first known health code. and many of the things that a jewish person can not eat, IE shell fish or pork can kill you if there not handled right. Also at the time the laws of mosies came about the Jewish people did not have much of a government to speak of. but they where united in faith. I do think human beings do need some laws. though porbly not as many as most governments think.

As part of my upbringing I was tought moral and ethical codes. I was also told right and wrong in the form of stories that told of some one who had acted in a good way and though he had bad things happen to him. he could count on the aid of his peers. and of men whom did things that where wrong and what things happened as a result of there actins...

I hear parents tell there children dont do this it is wrong and that bugs me. I often see those children watch there parents do the things they told there children what to do. both bug me. and I have seen those same parents punish there children for asking why something is worng or saying couse I said so.. but the best parents I have seen have seed dont do that, it is wrong and this is why

[Clarity]

_____I think I understand, Mr. Just Matt Too, but not really. Is there still a difference between telling people what to think and showing them how when it’s the same? Mr. Father at the church I sometimes go to always tries really hard to help me remember and how to choose the right and why I should. Hannah tries to show me how to think too, but sometimes it’s very difficult to understand just what they mean. Everyone here is so smart and knowledgeable, and I’m not. Maybe that’s why I follow my feelings?
_____P.S. Were you trying to tell me how to think when you told me why you think stealing is wrong, Mr. Just Matt Too? That’s how Mr. Father teaches, too.

[Hannah]

A little more on Zeus, Prometheus and fire.

At Mecone there was to be a settling of accounts between the gods and the mortals. As a part of this process there was to be a sacrificial meal. Prometheus and the mortals presented two platters to Zeus. One platter was covered in entrails and organs yet underneath the offal was all the succulent pieces of beef. The other platter was covered in glistening fat, but underneath this appetizing layer was all the bones hooves and other inedibles.

Zeus, given the choice, did what most would and asked for the more appetizing platter. In doing so he secured that for all future sacrfices, mankind would keep the tastiest and most nourishing bits of the animal and give the gods that which was inedible.

It was in response to this that Zeus hid fire from the mortals. Prometheus then stole fire from the Gods and presented it to mortals.

For these two insults, Prometheus was punished with being chained to a rock while mortals were punished by the unleashing the contents of Pandora's box.

So it is not like these incidents were entirely unprovoked in the mythology.

Many of the lores and religions surrounding deities and similar beings speak much of agreements, exchanges and trade. These beings almost always present themselves as the superior in negotiating their covenants, but there is always a negotiation, there is always an offering in exchange be it metaphysical or physical.

Are these beings powerful? Yes. Do they offer services to mortals? Yes. Do they need mortals? Yes. Do mortals need them? Well we used to, but that need is diminishing day by day.

Hannah

[Cybermancer]

I'll start with your P.S. Clarity.

No, I wasn't telling you what to think. I was demonstrating how I came to a conclusion about why I think it is wrong to steal. If you choose to use that same process or some other, it is up to you.

If we were having this conversation face to face, I could have simply asked questions and let you answer them until you came to a conclusion. But I would never have provided you with a conclusion. That is for you to determine on your own. However, due to the one way nature of forum convesation, I had to use my own processes as a demonstration.

The goal to learning how to think is to learn for ourselves how to solve problems on our own. You have this capabililty as much as anyone else on this board. I certainly wouldn't be inclined to underestimate the power of your feelings.

Feelings and hunches are our sub-conscience mind doing calculations and coming to conclusions much faster than our conscience mind can. Though sometimes we should pause to question these as well. Ask ourselves why we have these feelings and then proceed with better understanding of the situation.

I've observed that your feelings and if you'll excuse the pun, Clarity of vision is worth considering. That is why when you asked if maybe Miss Solstice should be rescued, I started asking you all those questions. It was by asking questions that I was eventually led to the truth of the matter, though a little later than I would have liked.

You ask lots of questions when you don't understand something, Miss Grace. And you don't just accept answers based on the authority of the person answering those questions. And that is what I would like to continue to encourage in you. You don't have to be or to feel smart to ask questions. In fact, you're a lot smarter if you do ask questions.

Does that help you understand or do you have more questions?

Hannah,

More or less, I agree with what you've said. I will add that I don't think we've ever actually needed the gods. I think they've just been really good at creating scenerio's where they seem to be needed. They may have made things easier in the past but there's always a price. And it's a price I don't think we should have to pay.

Maybe I'm greedy but I have no interest in sarcrificing any part of what's most important to me.

Now, as for spirituality. That's another subject altogether. I have grappled with the minions of darkness and evil. Even when things were at their worst, there was always hope. When things would seem to be lost, some small thing would happen to allow us to carry on the fight. If we are surrounded by darkness, there is a flicker of light that holds it at bay.

Just as I have witnessed the face of darkness, I know that there must be something opposite to that. Something as purely good as it was evil. While I can see entropy in the universe easily enough, I have yet to find an answer for why the universe exists at all. Some people would answer this with "God" or "Nirvana". I'm not sure such labels are useful.

But if there is fear in the unknown, there is hope as well.

[Daichan]

The spoon is an illusion.

[Shang Li]

The spoon is...........

A spoon. A simple piece of metal that eating soup and drinking tea very much simpler.

[Daichan]

Naw man, the spoon was totally an illusion. It was the laddle that was real. Let me explain.

I was part of team of observers on a multi-national camp and we were all relaxing in a Mess along with some Brits who were hosting us. Some engineering types were playing a game they called 'Spoons'.

Here's the set up. You have two guys in chairs, facing each other. They're blindfolded and are holding your typical table spoons in their mouths. The object of the game is to hit your opponent in the forehead with your spoon as hard as you can.

Here's the trick. What the nube don't know is that there's a guy standing behind him with a laddle, smashing him in the forehead!

Of course after watching this an American Marine wanted to play. I kid you not.

I totally should have offered to play it with him.

So yeah, the spoon was an illusion.

Have a nice day!

[Gotham Witch]

There is a necessary distinction one must make between faiths and supernatural entities, one that I think often gets missed.

I have, like many here, encountered and fought things that go bump in the night. I deal with the supernatural - magic, if you will - on a nearly daily basis. Belief - in myself and my abilities - is utmost important, for without that, I couldn't even cast a cantrip. I need to believe magic exists, and I need to believe I can manipulate it.

Despite this, I'm a lapsed Methodist - you might call me a 'hardline' agnostic, or a firm fencesitter (cue jokes about discomfort here). This surprises a lot of people - I can believe in magic and monsters, but not a god with a capital G?

To me, one is a codified system of images, symbols, and morals at best, and institutionalized superstition at worst. Religion is the creation of man, used to interact with an otherworldly thing. It is used by many to help answer questions or give guidance or meaning in life. It passes along allegories, or stories that are used to teach valuable lessons. It may be used to pass down important cultural details or matters of identity - we very much identify cultures by what they believe, after all.

These things are great and swell. And sure, there are powers believers wield that may very well be granted by a greater entity. But miracles are there to prove faith, so they fall flat with me. It could be pretty much any being to grant such powers - I've dealt with plenty of them.

Nothing says powers can't manipulate the tendency of humans to establish belief systems in their favor, either.

People who frequent this place should be well aware that there is nothing otherworldly about the Weird. In many ways there are thing strange and inhuman that are part of our existence, without the neat dividing border of a sacred, separate space where a man on his throne sits. I believe in the power of monsters - some inhuman, others less so - and men as agents of change, not some cosmic battle between good and evil dictated by two personifications of such.

Of course, I could also be completely wrong - who knows. I can be spiritual without being religious, after all.

Perhaps people get something out of faith that I will never understand. I can say I'll probably never be one of those people.

[Shang Li]

Why do so many people belive that others have to be wrong for them to be right?

Does the fact I know the Kami exist somehow mean that Brahmin does not? The fact that someone does not respect, or even believe in the Kami does not make them any less real. Why would it make Allah, God, or any being less real if I do not believe in them? If Amaterasu sends Kami to my aid, why shouldn't the God of Abraham send angels in response to the prayers of his faithfull? The Kami don't tell us of themselves, or their actions, would the servants of a different divinity be any different? For that matter, the Kami don't even show themselves to everyone, why would I expect beings of other religions to behave differently? And if you are of a more scientific bent, when did an absence of evidence become evidence of absense?

Of course, it did take us years to figure out that the Jesuits were not spreading the teachings of an unknown bhudda from across the western sea, so I might not have as firm a grasp on the nuances of the teachings of various religions as I should.

[Tms3]

its not that I think others are wrong. so long as there god does not tell them to hurt people. On that same token maybe of some one is looking for the divine they need only turn there eyes in word and look with in them selves. Maybe the act of Creating something costs the creator part of him or her or its self. As for some of the supernatural things we fight. and evil for that matter. I do not think its as orginsed as some religions have thought, evil is to chaotic to selfish to ever form in to great army or nations f evil beings

[Gotham Witch]

I think the nuance for me perhaps, after thinking about it, is that perhaps the 'constructed' image of a being - the images, the dogma, what followers believe s/he would do - may very well have nothing to do with the reality, or may even result in stark schism within a faith. Many times, what someone "knows" a being is or advocates is simply a reflection of what who they are.

I have no problem beings exist. Their followers just seem to get it wrong so often though. I have just a bit too much skepticism to have faith in what people claim them to be.

As an interesting aside, it took the Portuguese a bit to figure out that Christianity had in fact spread to India upon arrival, and that Mary and the Saints had become yet more faces of praise for the people. They didn't care for that equality in the least - or the lack of Latin Mass, ie, the 'right' way to worship' in the least.

[Gotham Witch]

I think the nuance for me perhaps, after thinking about it, is that perhaps the 'constructed' image of a being - the images, the dogma, what followers believe s/he would do - may very well have nothing to do with the reality, or may even result in stark schism within a faith. Many times, what someone "knows" a being is or advocates is simply a reflection of what who they are.

I have no problem beings exist. Their followers just seem to get it wrong so often though. I have just a bit too much skepticism to have faith in what people claim them to be or what they themselves may claim.

As an interesting aside, it took the Portuguese a bit to figure out that Christianity had in fact spread to India upon arrival, and that Mary and the Saints had become yet more faces of praise for the people. They didn't care for that equality in the least - or the lack of Latin Mass, ie, the 'right' way to worship' in the least.

[Cybermancer]

Shang Li,

All of your questions and arguements are against the stance that "these entities do not exist" which is not a stance that has been taken.

The closest to that stance that has been taken is, "These entities exist, and we're better off without them."

So I'm afraid I can not enter into a debate with you as that would require defending a stance that is not one I've taken.

As for the "Absence of evidence becoming proof of absence" line, that is 'arguement from ignorance', or a fallacy in informal logic. Interestingly it is a fallacious arguement both as quoted and as presented by yourself. The quote itself says, "If it has not been proven, it cannot be true." As presented by you, it suggests, "If it has not been disproven, it must be true". Neither arguement is valid.

Fortunately it's also a mute point as everyone engaged in this discussion thus far has accepted the premise that these beings do exist on some level. Even Gotham Witch doesn't deny the possibility of there being a god. She appears to have more of a problem with organized religion. Agnostics are not necessarily atheists (but may be). Generally they beleive that the existence of god is unknown or unknowable.

I have myself stated that these entities exist, having had first hand encounters with some of them. Having encountered some of them, I am willing to extend the possibility that others also exist. What I don't except is that they are necessary to us.

I have also further stated that religion is a tool. For some, a necesary tool that I would not take away from them. But as with any powerful tool, one must be wary as it can and has been used to hurt people.

These two issues are closely related but not necessarily the same thing. One can have the existence of powerful entities without them being part of a religion. One can also have a religion without the existence of powerful entities.

And one can have a tool available and opt not to use it.

[Shang Li]

Cybermancer, those questions were probably not for you then, although I do hope that taking time to think about them and their answers helped you in some small way.

As for the absense of evidence being evidence of absense, the point I was trying to make is that a lack of proof does not makes something not be there. You can't prove a thing to not exist, well unless you are an onmniscient being - in which case you should be out fixing the world, not wasting time with a worm like myself. Was it not fairly recently that science admitted that the giant squid actually exists? Were scientists correct in saying it did not exist for the hundreds of years before they found their proof?

As for being better off without them, I am doubting of that. Without Amaterasu's guidance, I doubt I would have become Li Shang the monk. Had I not become a monk, what would I have become? A farmer, a merchant? How many lives would I have been able to touch had I not heeded my calling?

If in doing good works I rescue or help someone, the credit is not mine. It is Amaterasu who guides my feet when I wander. When I do right, and oppose wrongdoing, consider this - my youth in a temple of Amaterasu is where I gained my definition of those concepts - from the teachings of Amaterasu as I learned them and from the actions of those who raised me.

[Daichan]

You can't prove a thing to not exist, well unless you are an onmniscient being - in which case you should be out fixing the world, not wasting time with a worm like myself.

I thought we were all here, trying to fix the world?

I guess that makes me omniscient!

Sweet!

All bow down before me, the Goddess Daichan!

[Cybermancer]

Shang Li,

While generally it is true that it you can't prove something not to exist, there are exceptions. The primary exception is where it can be proven that the things existence is impossible by other means. There is no evidence to say that giant squid don't live in pools of sulpheric acid. However, it can be proven that sulpheric acid kills squid and therefore squid cannot live in a pool of sulpheric acid.

Interestingly, it was long beleived that life itself could not exist in such pools but that has recently been shown to be a false assumption. Some bacterial life can exist in those conditions. But not squid.

So far as going out and trying to fix the world, does setting right what once went wrong count? I do not have to claim divinity to help fix what is wrong with the world while also holding a philosophical conversation with any individual. Nor do I need divine assistance to do either.

Speaking of squid, scientists as a group did not claim giant squid didn't exist. Most when asked would tell you either that they lacked sufficient evidence to conclusively say they did exist. There are some scientists who took this a step further to say that giant squid did not exist. The ones who said there was insufficient evidence were correct to do so. Those who said with false authority that they didn't exist were wrong.

I will respectfully submit to you Shang Li, that Amaterasu's guidance helped you choose your path. But it is your feet that trod that path. Your decision to follow that path. Just as those who claim that the Devil made them do something are usually responsible for their actions, the reverse is also true. That is not to say that the guidance provided wasn't useful to you or that you shouldn't have made use of it. But at best it shows it was helpful in you as an individual in choosing a path you found to be suitable.

That does not mean that it was needful to us as a group or even you as an individual. Consider if you had not been so moved and had become a farmer. Is feeding the multitudes any less a service to humanity that the path you've taken, oh humble monk? Is the movement of goods from where they are plentiful to where they are scarce an unnecessary funtion in our world? How many lives have been saved by those who peddle such goods as medicine, medical machines, computers and so on? Is your contribution to humanity any greater than any of those things?

Your faith and the aid you receive from other entities is a powerful tool. A useful tool. A tool you embrace using. But I am not convinced it is a necessary tool.

[Nemesis]

I can understand the appeal of having ones sins wiped away and being offered a chance at a new life, untainted by the old.

That alone might be worth a lifetime of devotion.

[Shang Li]

You have not seen the monster I become when I stray from the path. And I pray you never see me choose to follow the path of anger and death, steel and blood.

When you kill a man, for any reason, the light inside you dies just a little bit. Nature abhors a void, as the light dies it is replaced with darkness. Faith to teachings good and true provides a light strong enough to hold that darkness at bay. On a bad day, my link with Amaterasu is the only thing that reminds me of what is right and good, and it is on those days that my duty as one of the represntatives of Amaterasu and her teachings that keep me from becoming the center of a whirlwind of death and blood.

Amaterasu and her teachings are my center, the strength of my honor and morals are her strength, not mine. If you will pardon the pun, she is the shining star which guides my way through times of darkness.

Cynthia, I do not know that I would have my sins wiped away. The darkness which I have become is as much a part of me as the light I follow and hold dear. Without experiencing darkness it is difficult indeed to understand the beauty of the light.