Friday the 13th

[Cybermancer]

Good day all,

If I were to ask you, "What is Bram Stokers Dracula about, what would your answer be?"

Would you say that it was about a vampire named Dracula?

You'd be wrong, of course. The book is about the trimumph of science, technology and knowledge over superstition. It's an important lesson to learn, as understanding is always superior to assumption. This applies to the study of the supernatural as much as it does anywhere else.

Science, real science, should be used to study and therefore understand the forces behind the supernatural so that it can dealt with in an informed manner. Likewise, the assumption that a person that claims to have seen a ghost is naturally mistaken, may be erroneous and at it's heart, unscientific. I think this was one of Victor Lazlo's largest frustrations.

So in the interests of understanding superstitions, and in studying them to find their cause and true nature, I open this thread to discuss Friday the 13th.

What follows are some online sources of information about this infamous day.

Wikipedia

Yahoo News

About.com Urban Legends

Discuss.

[Ron Caliburn]

Well, in regards to Friday the 13ths . . .

Friday, October 13th, 2006

Friday, June 13th, 2008

[GhostSpider]

While I applaud the scientific approach to Supernatural investigation, and decry superstition, I have my doubts. I have seen many things. Many horrifying things. Things which scientists seek to understand, and to understand is to know.

There are things out there which man was never meant to know.

[Cybermancer]

There are things out there which man was never meant to know.

This is just the sort of baseless superstition I oppose. Knowledge is not inherently good or evil. There is nothing that is knowable that is meant to be known or unknown.

It is from ignorance that mistakes are made. It is from a lack of understanding that weakness is born.

Humanity is meant to know what they have the wherewithal to learn.

Take for example that Mr. Caliburn reports two bad Friday the 13ths over the years that he has been posting here. The superstitious would say, "You see, it is an unlucky day."

I ask, "why did nothing happen on all the other Friday the 13th's he's been here?" It is only because special significance has been artificially attached to the date that it is noticed at all.

[Slayer]

Speaking of the scientific approach in regards to magic/the supernatural I am hoping that I can get you to examine something for me Cyber. It is a new weapon that has recently come into my hands and I want to try and have it analyzed to see if it can do everything it is supposed to. I don't want to walk into a fight with it and have it be a dud. The last time that happened it cost me much more than I was willing to pay.

Also could you forward my things to me that I left in the house? I have need of them and I don't want to risk exposing the residents there to unwarranted danger if I don't have to. I will PM you with the address you can send it to.

P.S. I still want the room, once everything has return to somewhat normal and I can stop living off the grid.

[Cybermancer]

I am no expert when it comes to examining that which is magic or supernatural in origin but I'll take a look if you want.

Once I recieve the PM, your effects will be shipped.

[Slayer]

Much appreciated.

[Slayer]

Doc Boggs, if your reading this perhaps you can take a look at it is well.

[GhostSpider]

This is just the sort of baseless superstition I oppose. Knowledge is not inherently good or evil. There is nothing that is knowable that is meant to be known or unknown.

It never ceases to amaze me how naive men of science are.

[Cybermancer]

This is just the sort of baseless superstition I oppose. Knowledge is not inherently good or evil. There is nothing that is knowable that is meant to be known or unknown.

It never ceases to amaze me how naive men of science are.

Ah yes, the broad sweeping (and highly inaccurate) mysterious statement meant to imply you know better.

But you don't.

Superstition does not help us. It hinders us and helps the enemy. Knowledge helps us and hinders the enemy.

Knowledge is not inherently good or evil. The very idea is a lie spread by the enemy to keep people ignorant and defenseless.

Victor Lazlo's purpose and the reason we meet at a website named in his honor, was to educate and enlighten. Not to cloud the issue and not to discourage learning. And most certainly not to pray at the alter of ignorance.

Victor Lazlo's goal was to find the truth behind the superstitions.

He was a man of science.

[Eilonwy Solstice]

Some knowledge, when learned out of order or applied incorrectly, can be a dangerous thing, which could be construed as “evil.” And some knowledge, when bartered for, can be far too high than what we should be willing to pay.

I’ve also grown up believing some knowledge, such as learning how to summon demons and making pacts with beings of utter evil, has no practical value because the “cost,” often paid in souls or some other “alternative” currency, doesn’t merit the “return,” as the power given is often brief or twisted, and changing into enslavement as more time passes.

Of course, my experiences in such matters are minimal; I met one or two summoners as Celeste, but little else. One of them seemed rather addicted to the power. He had much of it, but depended on his master to use it. Much like a junkie craving a fix.

That might be considered “evil” and better left untouched, couldn’t it?

[Cybermancer]

Since the originator of this thread doesn't post anymore, I'll make an answer.

Knowing how to summon a supernatural evil doesn't mean you should do it. Nor does it mean you will do it. The knowledge itself is harmless and neutral. How you use it is another story.

That is because knowledge is simply a tool. Tools have no moral value. It is only their use that can determined to be ethical or not.

Summoning a supernatural evil might well be considered a negative action. While recognizing such an attempt might likewise be a positive action.

I know how to kill. That does not make me a murderer. Only the action of murdering someone can make me a murderer.

So no, knowledge is not inherently evil. Only actions can be evil. Or good.

[Eilonwy Solstice]

Since the originator of this thread doesn't post anymore, I'll make an answer.

Yes, sorry about that, Matt. I’m merely trying to catch up with what I’ve missed since my absence. But, since you did answered“for” him, I’d like to reply to your post and address a related issue, if I may.

Knowing how to summon a supernatural evil doesn't mean you should do it. Nor does it mean you will do it. The knowledge itself is harmless and neutral. How you use it is another story.

That is because knowledge is simply a tool. Tools have no moral value. It is only their use that can determined to be ethical or not.

It’s true, ordinary tools aren’t generally “evil” in and of themselves; but “harmless” can’t be ascribed to all tools, ordinary or otherwise. Knives and guns may not be good or evil, but I would strenuously object to their being called “harmless.” Even with the knowledge of how to use them doesn’t mean care can be abandoned completely.

I think the same holds true to knowledge.

I know how to kill. That does not make me a murderer. Only the action of murdering someone can make me a murderer.

So no, knowledge is not inherently evil. Only actions can be evil. Or good.

Again, you’re right that that knowledge isn’t inherently evil, but is it essentially “harmless”? How “harmless” can knowledge be if its only purpose is to harm? Knowing “how to kill” doesn’t guarantee one into becoming a killer, and it certainly might be called into action when the need for defending oneself arises, but, of what other use is it? Will it help you set broken bones, or know when certain injuries are life threatening?

I’m not sure, because I don’t know how you were taught that knowledge. But it doesn’t seem, to me, at least, as harmless or flexible in application as knowing the dates of various events in the United States’ history might be.

[Cybermancer]

Firearms and knives, when not in use are harmless. It is when they are improperly employed that they become potentially harmful. Even likely harmful. But they must be first put to use.

It's the same with any other tool. Many can be very dangerous if not handled properly. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have or use knives, firearms or any other tool. It means that we must be careful in their use, for it is in their use that the potential for harm is made manifest.

I certainly don't endorse the idea of careless use of any tool. Including knowledge.

Knowing how to kill is in and of itself completely harmless. It is only in the application of that knowledge that harm can be realized. Therefore yes, that knowledge is as harmless as any other. The application of that knowledge is not as harmless as say using historical dates, but that requires action. The action that can be taken from that knowledge is where the potential for harm lies. But there is no harm in merely possessing that knowledge.

Only action causes harm. Knowledge does not-can not. Acting on certain types of knowledge may lead to greater types of harm than other types of knowledge but it is the action, not the knowledge that causes harm.

So again, I don't see that you've shown that knowing something can be a negative.

On the other hand, not knowing things can be very negative indeed. The reason this site exists is so that knowledge can be shared and harm averted. All of us have seen the harm caused by the public's ignorance of the supernatural.

[Eilonwy Solstice]

I certainly don't endorse the idea of careless use of any tool. Including knowledge.

Only action causes harm. Knowledge does not-can not. Acting on certain types of knowledge may lead to greater types of harm than other types of knowledge but it is the action, not the knowledge that causes harm.

On the other hand, not knowing things can be very negative indeed. The reason this site exists is so that knowledge can be shared and harm averted. All of us have seen the harm caused by the public's ignorance of the supernatural.

I don't see that you've shown that knowing something can be a negative.

I wasn’t trying to show that knowing something can be negative. You’ve already admitted that you don’t endorse using knowledge carelessly, and that’s good enough for me. The acquisition of knowledge, I don’t think, is inherently a bad thing.

But it can put us into difficult positions at times if we’re not careful.

[Cybermancer]

Knowledge can put us in difficult positions even when we are careful.

There have been a couple of times in recent history where knowing something has put me in a difficult position. Still I have always at least attempted to act (or not act) on any knowledge I have gained in a way I hoped would net the most positive outcome. Being fallible, it has not always worked out as desired. Most recently this resulted in a bruise on my arm that took some time to heal.

[Eilonwy Solstice]

I know you’ve already forgiven me for that, but I still feel I should apologize for it, Matt.

[Cybermancer]

Do not be concerned about it at all, Miss Solstice. I knew at the time it was a Kobayashi Maru scenerio. I made my decisions, stood by them and took my lumps.