What's in a holy symbol?

Ron Caliburn · Post by **Ron Caliburn** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:12 pm

So Hannah read about Christmas Trees on Wiki and we need to set one up now and that got me wondering.

Is a Christmas Tree a Holy Symbol? It has signifigance in both Christian and Pagan faiths. Millions of people erect one in their homes, buisnessess, public places.

What is and isn't a holy symbol?

Natasha · Post by **Natasha** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:25 pm

We put up tree for New Year which isn't holy in any way whatsoever.

I'm not convinced that any symbol is inherently holy. If it becomes holy it's because somebody or something make it so. Perhaps lashing two sticks together holyfies a cross symbol; or perhaps vampires just react negatively to cross symbols.

How would I actually know?

Ron Caliburn · Post by **Ron Caliburn** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:29 pm

There is one unquestionabl expert on vampire psychology around here . . . but until she speaks, I've caught a vampire with a holy symbol from behind and he reacted as if it was in his face.

Natasha · Post by **Natasha** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:41 pm

What shape?

Was it blessed by a holyman or otherwise energised by an arcanist?

If it wasn't blessed by holyman then it's the symbol, not the holiness of it.

And that leads to further questions of self-energising symbols, which are certainly known to exist....

Ron Caliburn · Post by **Ron Caliburn** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:44 pm

A cross, I work with that because I am most familar with it. In this case I had some eletrical tape on my flash light and shined it on him from behind.

Natasha · Post by **Natasha** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:51 pm

Then it wasn't a holy symbol. It was a symbol. For a cross to be holy it has to be blessed or it has to be divinely created (in this case the symbol is inherently holy) such as some crosses of light seen in the sky over the bed of a dying saints and so forth.

Crosses damage vampires long before people consider them to be holy symbols, no?

Some symbols just energise themselfs. Most of such symbols are runes.

Do werewolves have organic or mystic vulnerability to silver? I'm not sure that can actually be measured; at least not safely, we all remember Dr. Elizabeth...

That's my take anyway. Hope it makes sense.

GhostSpider · Post by **GhostSpider** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:32 pm

Belief is, in my opinion, what gives a holy symbol its strength. Now, in the case of a christmas tree, I'm not so sure. Still, it would be interesting if it did work. Opens lots of possibilities.

Also, different kinds of trees have negative effects on supnats. Weapons made from these trees are quite effective at dealing damage to specific kinds of supnats.

Natasha · Post by **Natasha** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:39 pm

I believe I'm a holy symbol...die vampire die die die!

concrete_Angel · Post by **concrete_Angel** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:08 pm

Christmas trees were never a symbol in themselves. And unless you follow the ancient Germanic pagan beliefs, it's quite frankly a social and cultural symbol for people now. Kind of like a Coca-Cola bottle.

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:31 pm

Things are holy in name only.

There are no gods to make things holy.

Bert_the_Turtle · Post by **Bert_the_Turtle** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:17 pm

"God is dead."-Nietzsche

"Nietzsche is dead."-God

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:20 pm

There is no god. That was Nietzche's fundamental misunderstanding.

KonThaak · Post by **KonThaak** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:12 am

There's an old Judeo-Christian-Islamic belief that says that God is in all things...

There's an old Taoist belief that the Tao is in all things...

There's an old Shinto belief that says that there resides a spirit in all things (though some spirits are more prominent than others)...

There's an atheistic view that says that there is no divinity, but that we do definitely have souls (though whether or not the atheists who believe this calls them souls varies from group to group), and that as such, we have power... (There are also vast sects of atheists who not only don't believe this, but who actively disbelieve it.)

Dr. Lazlo called all of this "PPE", and as I recall, he noted that it's in all things, both living and not...though the PPE not found in living things was generally just called "ambient PPE", and as such, not terribly noteworthy at all. Nevertheless, it is there.

Regardless of what you call it or what you believe, it is there...and pretty much everyone agrees that it's fueled by the power of belief. If you believe you can manipulate it thus, you can manipulate it thus. I have seen a vampire repelled by a cross that was nothing more than a pair of sticks held together at the last possible moment by a devout Christian who had a prayer on her lips...and I've seen a vampire completely ignore a cross, blessed by a priest, held aloft by an atheist who didn't believe the cross would save him. (He had other means to protect himself, but it was a rather stupid experiment.)

So to answer Natasha's challenge, it's both the symbol and the divinity within...but not only the divinity within the symbol itself, but within the person utilizing the symbol.

To answer Ron's question... Yes, it could, if you believed that the Christmas tree in question brought you somehow closer to your divinity. Otherwise... Well, otherwise, it's just a tree.

Ron Caliburn · Post by **Ron Caliburn** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:26 am

What if there are enough people who beleive in the tree nearby, even if the holder doesn't.

concrete_Angel · Post by **concrete_Angel** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:46 am

Kolya wrote:There is no god. That was Nietzche's fundamental misunderstanding.

Yeah, well, you don't see Nietzche anymore, do you?

KonThaak · Post by **KonThaak** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:57 am

Ron Caliburn wrote:What if there are enough people who beleive in the tree nearby, even if the holder doesn't.

That could work, if they're close enough nearby.

In theory, the lights of the tree would then become painful to the vampire.

For the record, I'm not certain my belief in the symbol of a Christmas tree would be strong enough, so I won't be testing this theory, myself.

Natasha · Post by **Natasha** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:01 am

If you stick a cross in the ground and walk away from it a vampire is going to avoid it - whether or not it's blessed/holy doesn't really matter, does it; like you said, it can be two sticks held together and it still will keep them away. I bet if you stand a nega next to it the vampire would still avoid it; after all both the vampire and the cross exist even if the nega doesn't believe it about either.

It's the symbol and its innate power (what you named as 'divinity' - God, Tao, Mother Earth, Whatever label and the surrounding mythos ascribed to it) which is sparked by the creation of the symbol. The user's belief might boost the effectiveness or the power of the symbol but that may not necessarily be so. It doesn't matter how much I believe or disbelieve in a diabolistic experiment or even a ward that I know works. They are what they are and they sometimes fail and they sometimes work. I personally have nothing to do with that determination.

If you draw a rune, the process can trigger a mystic event which empowers the rune. Same thing when you create a cross. It's mystically energised to repel and even damage vampires. There are execptions to every rule so it doesn't surprise me a vampire could be powerful enough or dedicated enough to fight through the revolting power of a cross. I could lift a car if I really needed to even though I couldn't lift Bert off the ground with a bear hug under normal circumstances.

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:28 am

She doesn't agree with Lazlo on occasion, too.

DroopyDawg · Post by **DroopyDawg** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:30 am

Ron Caliburn wrote: A cross, I work with that because I am most familar with it. In this case I had some eletrical tape on my flash light and shined it on him from behind.

KonThaak wrote: ...and I've seen a vampire completely ignore a cross, blessed by a priest, held aloft by an atheist who didn't believe the cross would save him.

So then Ron, the question is did you believe that the cross you created on your flash light would affect the vampire?

By my understanding, the evergreen was brought in to the house, by certain pagan peoples, during the winter solstice, in an attempt to remind them that the world was still alive and not as dead as it looked through the door. As time progressed this became more and more ritualized till people made bringing the tree in a part of their religion.

The early Christian Church who desired to bring another faith under their auspice accepted the winter solstice as the date they celebrated the birth of Jesus. In turn the Roman Catholic Church accepted many of the traditions of the pagan people they converted, which included bringing an evergreen tree into the house during the winter solstice. So then after time passes and the tradition spreads around the people begin to attach the idea of the evergreen tree to the birth of the Christ therefore the Christmas tree.

Now days, believers and nonbelievers alike celebrate Christmas. The tree itself has never truly been a religious symbol and now it has been snagged by big business. Companies, use the Christmas tree and the Christmas holidays to promote the season where they make the most income and as such it is slowing spreading around the world.

So is it a holy symbol? Not really.
Can it be used as a holy symbol? Not a test I want to volunteer for.
Can belief empower the Christmas tree? I believe so, but not a test I want to volunteer for.

Droopy

Ron Caliburn · Post by **Ron Caliburn** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:27 am

I have a variety of holy symbols stitched into my armour - makes grappling me difficult for vampires and the like. Most are crosses, many are from religions that I have no history with. All seem to work fine.

Eilonwy Solstice · Post by **Eilonwy Solstice** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:18 pm

Blue Spruce, fir trees, and other popular Christmas decorations never stopped Celeste . . . decorated, flocked, or bare. However, sacred symbols stopped her completely, whether the holders were firm believers in the faith or not. Some things didn’t have to be sacred at all. Wolfsbane, holly, bodies of water . . . .

Ethan Skinner · Post by **Ethan Skinner** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:05 pm

Holy according to whom?

Until the Christians labeled the pentagram as the sign of the devil, it was the holy sign of the fertility goddess.

At least, if Dan Brown can be beleived.

KonThaak · Post by **KonThaak** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:59 pm

It was also, if some sources are correct, the symbol of white witchcraft for several centuries...

concrete_Angel · Post by **concrete_Angel** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:02 pm

RIGHT SIDE UP, the pentagram is a holy symbol.
UPSIDE DOWN, it's a sign of the devil.
Same could be said about the cross, unless you believe in the Saint Peter's cross.

KonThaak · Post by **KonThaak** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:31 pm

Eilonwy Solstice wrote:Blue Spruce, fir trees, and other popular Christmas decorations never stopped Celeste . . . decorated, flocked, or bare. However, sacred symbols stopped her completely, whether the holders were firm believers in the faith or not. Some things didn’t have to be sacred at all. Wolfsbane, holly, bodies of water . . . .

For one, I doubt anyone's really thought of using Christmas decorations as defenses before, and I doubt very many people really believe that Christmas trees and decorations truly bring them any closer to their divinity, so it's not surprising that Celeste was never repelled by such things...

Your other point does bring up an interesting thought. What if the vampire's beliefs influence the power of the symbol being presented to them? Celeste was a rarity in that she possessed a human soul, and had the freedom to understand her own beliefs and whatnot... What if the subconscious former beliefs of a vampire also affects what will affect them?

I guess what I'm trying to say is...if a vampire was a Christian before, perhaps the cross has more of an impact on them than if they weren't. It could explain why Celeste was impacted by any cross, despite the faith of the wielder, while I experienced a vampire that completely ignored a cross...

Just a few thoughts.

Ron Caliburn · Post by **Ron Caliburn** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:33 am

Holy water seams to be universally effective though.

KonThaak · Post by **KonThaak** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:43 am

That is true... I've never seen an atheist try using holy water against an atheistic vampire, though.

Shadowstalker · Post by **Shadowstalker** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:56 am

Hmm but is there such a thing as an Atheistic Vampire? I am being kind of serious here. What would turning into a vampire do to your views about reality?

KonThaak · Post by **KonThaak** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:57 am

Natasha wrote:If you stick a cross in the ground and walk away from it a vampire is going to avoid it - whether or not it's blessed/holy doesn't really matter, does it; like you said, it can be two sticks held together and it still will keep them away. I bet if you stand a nega next to it the vampire would still avoid it; after all both the vampire and the cross exist even if the nega doesn't believe it about either.

It's the symbol and its innate power (what you named as 'divinity' - God, Tao, Mother Earth, Whatever label and the surrounding mythos ascribed to it) which is sparked by the creation of the symbol. The user's belief might boost the effectiveness or the power of the symbol but that may not necessarily be so. It doesn't matter how much I believe or disbelieve in a diabolistic experiment or even a ward that I know works. They are what they are and they sometimes fail and they sometimes work. I personally have nothing to do with that determination.

If you draw a rune, the process can trigger a mystic event which empowers the rune. Same thing when you create a cross. It's mystically energised to repel and even damage vampires. There are execptions to every rule so it doesn't surprise me a vampire could be powerful enough or dedicated enough to fight through the revolting power of a cross. I could lift a car if I really needed to even though I couldn't lift Bert off the ground with a bear hug under normal circumstances.

That's not always entirely true. You need to charge your runes with energy, just as I need to charge mine... While the symbol itself can start things off, there needs to be energy to support it.

It's possible that the atheist I saw (a Secular Humanist, for those who're curious) disbelieved in the blessings of the cross so completely that he undid them, rendering the cross into a harmless ornament...and at the same time, the vampire that attacked him also disbelieved in the divinity of the cross, allowing him to ignore the fact that it was being brandished in his face. (If it weren't for me, there'd be one less atheist in the world...)

Finally, never forget that the meaning of a symbol can be changed and twisted, through the application of negativity and enough energy. I am, of course, referring to the German Swastika, an old Germanic rune of power. That was why Hitler used it; its meaning and heritage, he felt, would help not only his bid for power, but would help him while he was in power. With time, it twisted from being a relatively unknown rune of strength and victory into a symbol of hate and intolerance, reviled the world over. You could pry still use it as a power rune, but it would be a black mark in your rune casting...

KonThaak · Post by **KonThaak** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:03 am

Shadowstalker wrote:Hmm but is there such a thing as an Atheistic Vampire? I am being kind of serious here. What would turning into a vampire do to your views about reality?

I see atheism as a possible escape tactic... "If there were a loving higher power, this wouldn't've happened to me, and I wouldn't be getting controlled by this guy."

What's in a holy symbol?

What's in a holy symbol?

They never stopped Celeste . . .

Re: They never stopped Celeste . . .