(DELETED)

[Holister]

(DELETED)

[Ron Caliburn]

There ain't too much to tell. Hannah's as stubborn as her mother and not used to the idea of people disagreeing over stuff.

There we were, being treated like a couple of petulant 8 year olds and if we didn't get things sorted out, she was going to tell our mothers.

There is really only one big sticking point between me and Ben,so might as well hit it straight in.

"You know I'll never agree that any vamire is not a potential threat, so don't even ask.

"I will conceede that for the past year or so, she's been quite helpful."

[Shadowstalker]

I know for a fact there would be several people who would have paid to see the both of you cowwed by a young girl.

[Holister]

(DELETED)

[Bert_the_Turtle]

Ben:

"Hell, if this kid could get me and Ron to sit down face to face and discuss things, she should go to work for the U.N. and get things settled up ight in The Middle East."

I said that first haha.

{Thanks again by the way Bert }

Sure sure, I hope you plan on sharing those cheesesteaks. There's enough meat and bread and cheese there for 6 full ones.

Shadow: "I know for a fact there would be several people who would have paid to see the both of you cowwed by a young girl."

I flashed my Badge and got the security camera footage

Ben: "Turns out the guy is a pretty descent individual after all."

I told ya! He's a good guy. He and I have argued on the boards over the Penitent Monster issue a number of times, I make sure my attacks are always against the argument and never against the debater.

And as you may know by now,

(Yeah, here it comes)

I'm a Master Debater. *Badum Bum* *Crash*

[Shadowstalker]

Bert you will be forgiven that last joke only if you make that footage available.

[Hannah]

Hi Everybody,

Ben and Pa were pretty quiet. Pa don't talk much until he has ta but I thought Ben would be louder.

They talked a bit more about their disagreement. I'm not sure I understood it all, but let's see if I can sumarize.

There's this person called Cee and Ben has feelin's for her. My Pa thinks she's dangerous to have around though. Ben thinks my Pa needs to look past the surface. My Pa thinks that Ben needs ta remember that just because she's been nice lately and that Ben loves her, that this Cee person still, someday, might need to be stopped from doing something bad.

Ben said she wouldn't do anything bad, but Pa said Ben had ta be ready, just in case. Ben didn't like that so much, but agreed he would be ready 'cause this Cee person wouldn't want to be someone who hurt people.

Then we ate Jello.

It was green and jiggly.

I like Jello.

Hannah.

PS: On the way home I got Pa to a store that sells Jello. There were all different colors of the rainbow. We're gonna make a different color batch every couple days for a while so I can try 'em all.

[Holister]

(DELETED)

[Celeste Darken]

Ben . . . I am unsure of what to say . . . did you get any sleep last night? Have you had any sleep for the past week?

[Holister]

(DELETED)

[Deathblaster]

O.h Riiiiiiigggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhttttttttttttttt.....

Uh-huh. Yeah. OK> whatever you say. KKKKKkmkhpmhph...



I guess you were just "talkinhg" after to huh?



Dont mind me.

[Holister]

(DELETED)

[Shang Li]

Miss Hannah, Cee is Ms. Darken on the boards. She is a Kyuuketsuki, and in my mind a better person than those of us that don't have to overcome such heavy temptation in order to be "good". She has to work harder at it than we do, and in my mind desrves more respect for that fact.

[Hannah]

Hi Shang Li,

Thank you for explaining that to me.

I have ta work hard ta be good too. My other Pa always was after me about keeping up on my bible studies and wandering around the fields interfering with the men's work and wearing my dress high enough ta see my ankles.

Hannah

PS: I just realized, Pa has never asked me ta do my bible studies since I got rescued. I'm gonna ask him about that.

[Bert_the_Turtle]

Well Hannah, around here if you asked a dozen people their opinion on the Bible you'd get a dozen different answers, so that should give you an idea of how its generally perceived in the world at large.

[Celeste Darken]

I remember reading it on my dad’s lap . . . or trying to, anyway. He would help me sound out the words. Kind of ironic, considering what I am now . . . I haven’t read it for years. I stopped when I was 14. It somehow felt sacrilegious as a vampire . . . .

But maybe I’ll start that up again.

[KonThaak]

There's nothing wrong with reading the Bible, or believing in its tenets... It's when you start singling out individual passages (particularly from the Old Testament), take them out of context, and apply them in a black-and-white moral setting, that you get problems...

I could go on for hours and hours on the issues I've come across, the people who use the Bible to justify hating homosexuals, abortionists, Muslims, and just anyone who believes even slightly differently than they do... I could spend just as many hours justifying with the Bible that they're all wrong.

But really, I live kinda dangerously close to being a hypocrite... There's one line in the Bible I've always kinda strived towards... One line that ties together all of Christ's teachings the way he truly meant them to be. I can't spout the book or passage number, but...

"Beloved, let us love, for love is of God... For love is God, and God is love, and all who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them."

Jesus' teaching was special because he taught that God's love was meant for everyone, and not just a select few like the corrupt leaders of the day were claiming...

How sad that so many of his followers have taken that non-segregation message right back out of his message, and claim to be "Christ's chosen".

That is the reason I don't call myself a Christian, anymore... Not because I don't follow his teachings. Because I don't follow his followers' teachings.

[Celeste Darken]

That is the reason I don't call myself a Christian, anymore... Not because I don't follow his teachings. Because I don't follow his followers' teachings.

If you follow Christ’s teachings, you are a Christian. And if you don’t, you aren’t. If the church’s who profess to follow him don’t . . . they are not the Christians. What they say may not be what the Lord says. Many, if not all, Christian churches say that revelation is no longer needed and no longer even applicable. Well, if that is the case, who are they to say anything? If revelation is God’s way of speaking, and the churches deny revelation, logically, they no longer have any way to back up what they say.

I am getting off track here, if I ever had one to begin with. The point is not what we say, but what we do. You may believe there is no such thing as good and evil, Konthaak, but I do. And I believe you are a good man, whatever you call yourself and whatever people call you. Do I have to extrapolate further?

[Holister]

(DELETED)

[KonThaak]

If you follow Christ’s teachings, you are a Christian. And if you don’t, you aren’t. If the church’s who profess to follow him don’t . . . they are not the Christians. What they say may not be what the Lord says. Many, if not all, Christian churches say that revelation is no longer needed and no longer even applicable. Well, if that is the case, who are they to say anything? If revelation is God’s way of speaking, and the churches deny revelation, logically, they no longer have any way to back up what they say.

I am getting off track here, if I ever had one to begin with. The point is not what we say, but what we do. You may believe there is no such thing as good and evil, Konthaak, but I do. And I believe you are a good man, whatever you call yourself and whatever people call you. Do I have to extrapolate further?

Nope. I never said there was anything wrong with defining good and evil for yourself, nor in applying those definitions.

I know you don't much think it's on-topic, but I tried following that thought and belief of believing that those who claim to be his followers usually aren't...but it led to a lot of problems. I'm not ready to be martyred for my beliefs, and telling a die-hard fundie they're not really a Christian, and, what's more, that they drag Jesus' name through the mud, is asking to be lynched.

Besides, being a Christian usually entails having three beliefs... 1) That Christ was *the* Messiah, 2) that Christ was the only-begotten Son of God, and 3) that the miracles detailed in the Bible are purely that: miracles.

As for the first, the Old Testament is littered with names associated to people who were supposedly the Messiah. The old Judeans practically had a new Messiah every month. What's more, we've had so many people sacrifice their social, political, or physical lives or livelihoods for their people, it's impossible and ludicrous for me to believe that Christ was the only Messiah... As to the second, that is something I have come to realize doesn't matter one way or the other. If he was, then the circumstances around his birth are miraculous, but all the "miracles" and all the teachings he performed through life lose a lot of their impact, because he's the Son of God... If, however, he wasn't, then he was simply a man who was singularly capable of doing incredibly great things, both mystical and mundane, and then his entire life becomes a miracle. (For the record, I grew up believing he was the begotten son of God, and I know that I *want* to believe he was something more than just a mundane person like me, but I am also quite ready to accept the possibility that he wasn't.)

As to the third... I have a lot of questions and problems surrounding his "miracles". I won't go into a lot of detail into those questions and problems, but suffice to say that many of his miracles could've been mystical powers, some of his healings probably didn't require any special abilities, and the fact that modern Christians place his miracles over his teachings. This again seems ludicrous and to be counter to what Jesus wanted...so to be blunt, I don't know and don't care whether he ever performed a single "miracle" in his life. The true miracle is that his words and teachings still carry through to today, despite being twisted and used to justify the wrong things time and again throughout history.

So to finally wrap this up, I'm content not calling myself a Christian. Christ himself wasn't a Christian; he marched to the beat of his own drum, he stood against the errors of his religion's ways, he tried to teach people to think and believe for themselves, and he taught a number of other things that his churches have failed to instill in their followers... I'd rather forge my own way as a heretic and a druid than be mistakenly associated with the church.

Which is not to say that there are no good churches out there... There're a lot of good churches out there, and a lot of good people in the churches I don't much like. I just don't happen to agree with their teachings surrounding Christ, and I don't happen to believe the same way they do.

You can always tell the good ones, because you can say things like that, and they smile and say that you understand better than some Christians do.

[Hannah]

Hi KonThaak

I like it when people mention love and the bible. I never really got why my other Pa ignored those parts.

As for what makes a Christian, a Christian is someone who has accepted that the Lord Jesus Christ died on the Cross for their Sins and that through Him they shall get to Heaven.

Hannah,

PS: What's wrong with readin' the bible Celeste? Why does it feel wrong ta you?

[KonThaak]

As for what makes a Christian, a Christian is someone who has accepted that the Lord Jesus Christ died on the Cross for their Sins and that through Him they shall get to Heaven.

I can't say I much believe that, either, I'm afraid, Hannah. God is love; why would a loving God allow mankind to be banished to an eternity in Hell for misunderstandings in life? Why would a loving God sacrifice his son (an act he told Abraham that was wrong to do), even for the benefit of everyone?

No, I feel the real reason was much harder for Christ to die for. If, when he was arrested, he had allowed Judas and the other disciples to draw steel and fight, they would have been killed... They may not have understood his teachings perfectly, but they had been his traveling companions and friends for the past three years. If he could have them spared by sacrificing himself...I believe his love for them was great enough for him to make that decision.

To believe that he died for our sins takes into account two beliefs: a belief in eternal damnation, and a belief that believing in Jesus is the only way to get to God. I don't believe Jesus believed either of those things at all... We are mortals; we are imperfect and childlike in comparison to God. If a mortal parent cut off the hands, cut out the tongue, and stabbed out the eyes of their six-year-old child for stealing cookies before dinner or not taking a bath when they're supposed to, we would have that man on Death Row faster than you could sneeze... Why, then, would we believe that a loving God would send us into eternal damnation in Hell? I'm not saying I know what lies Beyond and Between life and death, but if "God is love", as Jesus tries to tell us time and time again through action and teachings, then I don't see that eternal damnation is a possibility for anyone. It just doesn't fit with "unconditional love" or "eternal forgiveness".

Jesus never claimed to be the only way into Heaven, either... Christianity's favorite line to throw around is one taken out of context and with extra words thrown in and with words mistranslated... A few days before the Last Supper, Jesus told his disciples he'd be leaving them soon, and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth. "Jesus," they cried, "You can't leave us! How will we find the way? We don't know the way!" For three years, now, they'd been following him, listening to his teachings, and telling him they understood, and now that they risked losing him, they had the gall to tell him they didn't understand after all. They were speaking in Latin, which has no word for "the" or "a", and he used the word "nemo", which is translated as "no one", but in that context, really means more like "none of you"...

So the line was supposed to be, "I am Way, I am Truth, I am Light, and none of you will get into God's home save through me." Granted, because Latin doesn't have a word for "the", he could have meant it the way the church uses the line, but it doesn't mesh with the rest of his teachings... There is a message, though, that does, involving "I am", which is God, which is love. "Love is the way, love is the truth, love is the light..." As for why none of them would find God's home except through him? Simple. There are many roads to Creator, but our time on this world is limited, and our ability to learn even more so...and our ability to learn back then was very highly limited. His time was coming to a close, and he knew it...and he probably feared for their lives as well. If they were going to die, it was too late for them to go back and learn about love through another source... Each of them was already having problems grasping his teachings about love, and each of them was already applying their own political views and backings into their teachings.

So...there it is. I don't believe Christ died for our sins; I don't believe he was sacrificed by Creator; I don't believe Jesus is the only way into Heaven...

I'm sorry if that was a bit long-winded; I actually cut out a lot of what I wanted to say...

Anyway, I'm not saying I'm right and all Christians are wrong. I'm just pointing out my views, and why I believe them.

[Hannah]

Hi KonThaak,

Yes, God is love.

God did not send Jesus to death, he respected his son's wish to take all the pain and sin unto himself and free us from damnation. So God loved Jesus, and respected him and his choices. He offered Jesus respite fromw hat he was to endure, but Jesus chose to suffer for our sins.

Those who do not choose to follow the path of Jesus Christ are likewise loved and respected. They have been told the consequences of their actions, but they are still free to make their choice. Like any father, God still loves the child he must punish.

Hannah,

PS: Have you talked to God lately about this? We used to talk to God all the time back in the Compound.

[KonThaak]

I used to talk to Creator and Creation all the time... I haven't much, lately, but I've been too busy to get into the right mindset. Hopefully, things will die down enough for me to start setting some time each week aside for it again...

Why would we need to be punished for believing one way as opposed to another, anyway? And for those who willingly lead wicked lives, why punish them for eternity? We are here on this world for but an eyeblink, in the grand scheme of things... How can we suffer eternity for the things we do in such a short time?

I don't believe in a Creator that would allow such things. Again, that doesn't fit with the definitions of "unconditional love" or "eternal forgiveness".

[Hannah]

Hi KonThaak,

It's a pity you don't talk to God more often. Perhaps he could answer your questions for you.

We are not punished for beleiving one thing over another. We just will not get ta Heaven if we do not follow God's laws and take God inta our hearts. It is the wicked who are punished.

Heaven is a pure place. Ta let in those who are not pure would destroy it.

God does love us unconditionally and he does forgive us - but he must follow the rules he has set. He can only let into heaven those who have taken him into their heart and honestly and truely repented their sins.

Our Father will forgive us if we sincrely present ourselves to him for forgiveness.

Hannah

PS: Remember, no matter how busy you get, God has time for you.

[GhostSpider]

Holister and Ron actually sitting down and having a civilized conversation. No wonder all the demons are flocking here, Hell hath officially frozen over.

I know for a fact there would be several people who would have paid to see the both of you cowwed by a young girl.

Me amongst them.

I flashed my Badge and got the security camera footage

Bert, my good buddy. Anything that I can do to convince you to make a copy.

I'm a Master Debater. *Badum Bum* *Crash*

Uhhh, Bert we expected better from you.

Listen kid, when mommy and daddy are brother and sister,
they shouldn't get married and have kids. You're more than enough proof of that.

Ha ha ha ha!!!!!

Kyuuketsuki

Bless you Shang.

And I'm not even going to get into the theology debate.

[Deathblaster]

Huh. Guess Hollt is now officialy out of his head. Hows it up ter Holly?

[KonThaak]

Hi KonThaak,

It's a pity you don't talk to God more often. Perhaps he could answer your questions for you.

We are not punished for beleiving one thing over another. We just will not get ta Heaven if we do not follow God's laws and take God inta our hearts. It is the wicked who are punished.

Heaven is a pure place. Ta let in those who are not pure would destroy it.

God does love us unconditionally and he does forgive us - but he must follow the rules he has set. He can only let into heaven those who have taken him into their heart and honestly and truely repented their sins.

Our Father will forgive us if we sincrely present ourselves to him for forgiveness.

Hannah

PS: Remember, no matter how busy you get, God has time for you.

For the record, since Celeste's death, Gabriel's disappearance, my missing memories, and all the insanity around Ben, I have gone out to Creator... Called out and asked if It could tell me what's going on...

I got a reply, but it wasn't one I wanted to hear. It's always the same reply when I ask that question, and it's never the answer I wanna hear...

But anyway...

For your sake, Hannah, I asked about forgiveness and punishment, too...and about the nature of Hell.

"Punishment is what people make of it... Sometimes our perceptions of ourselves is an eternal punishment in itself. Sometimes we perceive another is being punished, when in fact they aren't..." That's...very heavily paraphrased, because the Creator didn't answer in words. I think you'll understand that, Hannah.

And when I asked what we need to do to avoid "punishment", the answer I got was "love yourself, and love others". When I asked about Hell, I didn't get an answer... I think I asked too broad of a question, I'm not sure. I asked about Heaven, and if people were ever denied entry for any reason...and again, I received no answer.

And then I realized why... They aren't my questions. I was asking more to appease you, Hannah... I already believe the answers. I don't know them, but it's enough for me.

So instead of worrying about it, I tried meditating for the first time in a couple years...

I couldn't get Celeste and Ben out of my head... What happened to Sarah makes me wish I could remember her...