Where's the Proof?

[Phoenix]

For over a hundred years parapsychologists and scientists have investigated the supernatural and paranormal abilities. With Project Stargate, even the US government has admitted to researching these things. So where's the proof? Why does the mainstream scientific community insist on calling parapsychology pseudo science? In short, where's the proof?

Well, let's look at the research that took place. In almost every case research started out very promising. And then in every case outside agencies systematically discredited research and researcher alike. Were they all frauds? Or was something else afoot?

Victor Lazlo was a man that many tried to discredit but they just couldn't make it stick. They tried to discredit his work but the evidence he had was real. In fact he was being heard and was starting to sway public opinion. With his mysterious disappearance, he was finally silenced but he has not been forgotten. This site and the Lazlo Agency are both testaments to that. The fact is that the Lazlo Agency represents a following in the tens of thousands world wide and they may be reaching ten times that number.

Nor is the Lazlo Agency the only large group that knows about and actively researches the paranormal. There are a number of large and well funded organizations not just here in the US but across the globe. If even one of these agencies came forward with their research and evidence, they might be able to finish the job Victor Lazlo started, right?

So what is stopping them?

It's not that they are lacking evidence. There's literally mountains of it. The proof exists so why the silence?

There are a number of factors at play here. I'll try to tackle them one by one.

The first is the government. Not just the US government but many if not most governments (with Asian governments perhaps being the exception).

If psychic powers existed, then rationally the government would want to exploit those abilities in their population. I'm not necessarily talking about rounding up psychics for use in psychic concentration camps, but if you have a spy who can read minds, it gives you an advantage over your enemy. Indeed, you're going to assume that your enemy is researching these abilities and intends to use them against you as well.

We know that psychic abilities do in fact exist and we also know that the US government did indeed research the subject, until 1995 when they declared it a failure and shut it down. I do not think it was a coincidence that many university programs were also being shut down or denied funding at the same time. It is not, as the ill informed will claim due to lack of evidence. I think that they, like Victor Lazlo and many other parapsychologists, found the mountains of evidence.

I think they may have started to take certain things very seriously. Like the Salem witch hunts that burned what were likely innocent victims. Then there are the inquisitions that allegedly battled evil powers but also likely killed as many if not more innocents then anything else. And reasonable governing power would want to avoid this sort of thing but openly declaring the existence of psionics and magic and then proving it would very likely produce exactly this sort of thing. We've seen it in the past and have no evidence that humanity is really any more enlightened than they were then.

Of course politicians also tend to be cynical. If they discovered that paranormal abilities are real, they may well have discovered that supernatural monsters are real. If they have discovered this, then they are in a far better position than any of us to see the big picture. Even more so if they have covertly shared what they know with other governments that have possibly (even probably) carried out similar research. So why keep quiet about the monsters?

Because they're woefully under prepared, under equipped and under manned to deal with what they've discovered. If they announce that monsters are real and prove it, the monsters will know too. If the government is not prepared to deal with those monsters en masse, then they might find themselves taken down by the supernatural onslaught.

Perhaps just as likely they are worried that if they announce that they know about the monsters, the monsters will go even further and deeper underground and out of sight than they already have. This will make them harder and perhaps even impossible to track and counter. If the government acts ignorant, even willfully ignorant of the supernatural, then they can act in secret to counter supernatural enemies. Secrecy is an excellent tool in any battle and often the first line of defense against the supernatural.

Of course these tactical concerns come equally into play when dealing with other nations as well as supernatural horrors. It is possible that there is a psychic arms race going on in the shadows. China in particular is known to be expending quite a bit of resources into psychic research over generations.

So far we have humanitarian and tactical reasons to keep knowledge of the supernatural on the down low. Plenty of motivation for any government to keep things secret.

And when it comes to public or private institutions trying to find the truth of the supernatural, they fall broadly into two categories. The vocal proponents like Victor Lazlo who have their research or themselves under constant attack or those who conduct their research quietly and don't publish papers to mainstream science for review.

How are the loud ones dealt with? Planted false evidence, paid off researchers and scientists who 'fail' to replicate results, as well as government plants who sabotage projects. Those who are persistent report Men in Black type visitations where they are threatened. Sometimes research material is destroyed or vandalized and constantly they are harassed.

Of course it is not always the government or those acting on behalf of the government who are responsible for the suppression of knowledge. There are also supernatural sources. I remember a few times my old master required me to ruin, discredit or blackmail a researcher who was getting too close to the truth. It happens a lot. After all, the closer people get to the truth, the more knowledge they gain, the more effective they are against supernatural creatures.

Then of course there are just irrational minds who refuse to accept any amount of evidence who have the arrogance of the ignorant who can't just wallow in their ignorance in private. Instead they insist on attacking anyone's world view that doesn't agree with their own. They are irrational because no amount of evidence will sway them.

So anyone wanting to conduct serious research into the paranormal has to keep their results quiet or risk harassment at the least and sabotage or murder at worst. As long as they don't rock the political boat, the government leaves them alone. As long as they're not too widely known, the supernatural creatures of the world will underestimate the danger they represent.

There is another reason that the government will leave the quiet ones alone. It has to do with cost benefit analysis. These agencies while quieter, do a lot to stem the tide against the supernatural and at no cost to the government or its plans, secret or otherwise. So long as they are discrete, don't draw too much attention to themselves and continue to fight against the supernatural, it is in the governments best interest to let them continue to do so. Going so far in fact, to occasionally sweep minor infractions under the rug.

Of course, supernatural elements do target these agencies from time to time. This too serves the government by keeping the enemy divided without sapping government resources.

However, there are other things, stories and reports I have learned about over the years that make me think that either the US government is not entirely benign on the issue of the supernatural or else that it is divided into factions with some working towards unknown, and perhaps sinister ends. This can happen when there is too much secrecy and too little oversight.

Since the mid 1950's there have been reports of psychics or those displaying unusual abilities just up and disappearing. Hundreds if not thousands of cases. Easily lost or over looked in the hundreds of thousands of missing persons that happen every year. Where are they going and who is taking them? Are supernatural forces attacking them pre-emptively? Maybe in many cases but there have been reports of Men in Black associated with these disappearances. Sometimes sighted before or sometimes they come around asking questions after the fact.

There's some obvious reasons why this was posted in the conspiracy theory section. But however paranoid it may sound, it is worth considering.

[skeptic]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
In order to be 'scientific' a small number of requirements must be met.
If they are not met, then it is not scientific.

I have worked with many people who believe they were abducted by aliens, for instance.
Sometimes they are explained by scientific investigations.
Sometimes they remain a mystery.

The basic problem is the attempt to prove a negative.

[Phoenix]

Extraordinary evidence does exist. That's the point.

And you shouldn't bother trying to prove a negative.

[skeptic]

None scientific.

[Phoenix]

Wrong. The paranormal has an effect in the material world. That effect can and has been measured. Tests have been run and verified. It can and has been handled very scientifically.

[Grace]

None scientific.

Dismissal. Again.

[Cybermancer]

There are problems with getting legitimate, scientific evidence of paranormal activity published regardless of how rigidly scientific processes are followed. Even a whiff of paranormal research can cause knee jerk reactions from the mainstream scientific that can ruin reputations and credibility. Not because of flawed procedures or research or evidence but because of the attached stigma.

Getting honest peer review is also difficult. At this point the only scientists willing to conduct peer review on paranormal research are other paranormal researchers which causes the mainstream scientific community to cry foul, despite having refused to give the research proper scientific treatment in the first place.

There are a lot of scientists that quietly conduct research into the subject matter but just prefer not to publish their findings outside of parapsychology journals, and sometimes not even then. That is because there have been scientists and researchers who have been threatened or disappeared under suspicious circumstances.

So the mountains of scientific evidence continue to be built but also continue to be actively suppressed. And occasionally when the mainstream is confronted with evidence they can't refute, the shrug their shoulders and say, "I can't explain it but it was probably a problem with the methodology." Regardless of how stringent the controls are. The objections have just gotten patently absurd and irrational at this point.

[skeptic]

There's no money in it.
There may be mountains of research, but there is not mountains of evidence.

[Cybermancer]

There is in fact mountains of evidence, acquired scientifically.

[Grace]

There's no money in it.
There may be mountains of research, but there is not mountains of evidence.

Dismissal. Again.

[Nemesis]

When I was with the Foundation, there were a few missions against scientists and researchers. I was never privy as to why exactly they were being targeted but we usually made off with the research after our sabotage/blackmail/violence was done.

[skeptic]

There's no money in it.
There may be mountains of research, but there is not mountains of evidence.

Dismissal. Again.

You are wrong. Again.

You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means.

The problem is not that we (scientists) are not interested.
There are plenty of us who are interested. Myself included.
I have several peers who use their holiday time and money to search for Big Foot.
I myself am interested in a different area of the paranormal.
Which is why I use my time and my money to research the paranormal.
As such I have worked hundreds of alien abduction and demonic possession cases.
I am not a debunker. I am a skeptic. And I am so for a reason.
There are mysteries. There are things unexplained.
But that does imbue other ideas with scientific validity.
There are basic requirements that must be met for an idea to be scientific.
We have not met those requirements.

Occam's Razor, which seems to be popular here, suggests a lack of money and results over an army of men in black.
Just like it suggests human behaviour and sexuality over demonic possession.
That is not dismissal.
If it is, then you are guilty of it.

Furthermore, the vast majority of scientists are not independently wealthy.
Or wealthy at all.
We work for a living.
We cannot build particle accelerators.
Or supercomputers.
We do not get grants for studying ESP.
That's not dismissal of any kind.
That's the reality of science, of what we who do science day in and day out live with.

I would point out that there was an offer for peer review.
It was declined.

[Cybermancer]

The problem is not that we (scientists) are not interested.
There are plenty of us who are interested. Myself included.
I have several peers who use their holiday time and money to search for Big Foot.
I myself am interested in a different area of the paranormal.
Which is why I use my time and my money to research the paranormal.
As such I have worked hundreds of alien abduction and demonic possession cases.
I am not a debunker. I am a skeptic. And I am so for a reason.
There are mysteries. There are things unexplained.
But that does imbue other ideas with scientific validity.
There are basic requirements that must be met for an idea to be scientific.
We have not met those requirements.

The basic requirements to be scientific are:

Formulation of a question.
Creation of a hypothesis.
Making predictions with the hypothesis
Testing the predictions.
Analysis of the results.

All of which can and have been done on this subject.

Occam's Razor, which seems to be popular here, suggests a lack of money and results over an army of men in black.
Just like it suggests human behaviour and sexuality over demonic possession.
That is not dismissal.
If it is, then you are guilty of it.

Given that the research and evidence exists means that money was not the issue. Therefore the search for other answers continues.

Furthermore, the vast majority of scientists are not independently wealthy.
Or wealthy at all.
We work for a living.
We cannot build particle accelerators.
Or supercomputers.
We do not get grants for studying ESP.

Some of us are in fact, wealthy and work for a living as well. And even today, grants exist for the research of ESP. Besides, neither supercomputers or particle accelerators are required.

I would point out that there was an offer for peer review.
It was declined.

When and where?

If you want to come witness paranormal research with blatant displays of telekinesis, it can be arranged. You will see predictions made, tests done and then the results evaluated. You will be able to inspect all the equipment to your hearts content. After the tests you'll be able to interview the participants as much as you want. You won't find trickery because none exists and is not required.

Here is the testable prediction for telekinesis.

Some individuals possess the ability to move objects when they think about moving those object without physically touching them. They will be able to move small objects such as playing cards until they grow mentally fatigued. Approximately half the subjects with this ability will feel performance anxiety while being observed and will only be able to lift one quarter as much for one quarter as long but will still produce measurable results.

The test is simple. Put them in a room with two tables and a stack of playing cards. Then count how many cards they are able to move without touching them. They will sit behind a plexiglass screen so that they cannot breathe on the cards or otherwise interfere with them.

If the cards are moved without any other force acting on them, then the hypothesis is shown to be correct.

The test will also be run on those without the ability to as a baseline.

Researchers will stand behind a one sided mirror so that they also, cannot interfere with the results of the test or influence the test subject in any way.

Over a hundred individuals have been documented taking this test and have moved the cards from one table to the next. I have the video recordings of those tests. On this occasion, there will be six individuals tested and they will be tested multiple times on different days. This is so different test equipment can be attached to scan different biological reactions while their powers are in use.

The subjects have to be able to see the cards they are moving and must be within 15ft of them. They will be able to move cards for a minimum of one minute. Due to the range of the ability, no one is allowed within 30ft while the test is in progress to prevent interference of any kind.

If you repeat the tests (I can arrange grant money since this isn't an expensive test to run at its most basic level), then you can run the test yourself with either the same subjects or others we can introduce you to who have the same ability. True telekinetics are hard to come by but not impossible.

[skeptic]

I'm guessing that you never heard of Karl Popper.
If you have, you are dismissing him.
Either road, the difference is the same.

The existence of research does not mean money is not an issue.
Does selling more ice cream lead to an increase in murder rate?

Yes there are grants for all kinds of things.
The vast majority, the kind that can give teams of scientists a life worth living, are not ESP grants.
This is just the reality of the modern scientific community.
Science runs on money.
Dismiss it all you like.
Be wrong all you like.

I have been working for and with the paranormal for over thirty years.
I have seen it happen a lot that its members get too wrapped up in the paranormal world and forget the rules of the normal world.
When these rules are pointed out to them, they are appreciative or (as recently happened to me) they respond with irrational and unlogical peer pressure to induce behaviour change.

I have been around the block many, many times.
Do not think you are the first to have floated a card from one table to another.
Only to have it fail when I tried it.
So I guess in a way it's OK to dismiss Popper since we never get that far anyway.

But I am willing to try.
Send me your experiment.

As for the offer of peer review, Annabelle offered in early April.

[Tanya Starling]

Hi again; I know that I may be new here, but if I may interject for one tiny moment. Has anyone here actually sat down with each another or worked with one another in person. It sounds like a lot of unnecessary debate on this subject that seems to be creating some rifts within your society.

If it is evidence of the existence of the supernatural any of you seek, I would be more than happy to invite you into my home and share the findings of my investigations and research. I am a believer, but I also know that 99% of the occult {or what passes for it} is mostly, for the lack of a better phrase, bullshit. It is however that remaining 1% that is not and remains ever so difficult for those looking for it to ever actually identify it when they do find it. This has been my personal experience. I know personally that the supernatural does in fact exist. I have seen and experienced it first hand as I am sure many others here within this great institution have as well. It is our responsibility to open the eyes, and the minds, of others without forcing those beliefs onto others who chose to remain blind to it.

As for the statements made thus far within this discussion, I think that they are all valid points without the need for taking jabs at one another. Once again I may be new here, but a house divided cannot stand. Maybe as a show of good faith the interested parties posting here can get together and share what they know first hand and get a better understanding of one another's point of view, and if best, walk away a little more enlightened because of it. I know that I am always willing to share what I know with those eager to learn, all they must do is reach out to me.

Thank you all again for inviting me into you group and I hope that we can all work together real soon.

[skeptic]

Well this will teach me to not read everything before responding. I could have saved myself a post.
I will go so far as to admit that there are things unexplained.
I cannot rule out ordinary causes for them and claim them supernatural based on my years of experience.
I need more.

You can find my contact information from the Society, call any time day or night.

[Tanya Starling]

I may just take you up on that offer Sebastian.

[Cybermancer]

I'm guessing that you never heard of Karl Popper.
If you have, you are dismissing him.
Either road, the difference is the same.

I'm sure you're referring to falsification which applies to theory. We're discussing evidence here so it wasn't relevant for me to bring it up nor was it relevant for you to do so.

The existence of research does not mean money is not an issue.
Does selling more ice cream lead to an increase in murder rate?

The research and evidence exists. It is not mainstream. Money does not prevent it from becoming mainstream, it can only prevent it from happening. It has already happened.

Yes there are grants for all kinds of things.
The vast majority, the kind that can give teams of scientists a life worth living, are not ESP grants.
This is just the reality of the modern scientific community.
Science runs on money.
Dismiss it all you like.
Be wrong all you like.

The research and evidence exists. It is not mainstream. Money does not prevent it from becoming mainstream, it can only prevent it from happening. It has already happened.

I have been working for and with the paranormal for over thirty years.
I have seen it happen a lot that its members get too wrapped up in the paranormal world and forget the rules of the normal world.
When these rules are pointed out to them, they are appreciative or (as recently happened to me) they respond with irrational and unlogical peer pressure to induce behaviour change.

In no way relevant.

I have been around the block many, many times.
Do not think you are the first to have floated a card from one table to another.
Only to have it fail when I tried it.
So I guess in a way it's OK to dismiss Popper since we never get that far anyway.

The dismissal you claim never happened.

But I am willing to try.
Send me your experiment.

You were invited to participate.

As for the offer of peer review, Annabelle offered in early April.

Not what was being addressed. You were being challenged to see the experimental evidence. Annabelle's credentials and motives were and are an unknown. Furthermore, she hasn't responded to my last PM offering her a chance to meet and discuss matters.

Well this will teach me to not read everything before responding. I could have saved myself a post.
I will go so far as to admit that there are things unexplained.
I cannot rule out ordinary causes for them and claim them supernatural based on my years of experience.
I need more.

You can find my contact information from the Society, call any time day or night.

Since you can't explain it, you have no business categorily telling others they can't either or that they're wrong. By your own admission, you don't know.

[Holister]

Greetings Ya'll

Listen, Skeptic is entitled to his opinion like anyone else here. So can ya'll stop badgering the poor fella. The same applies in vice versa too. This is not longer a pleasant discussion as it looks more like a couple of goats buttin' heads. Jus' 'bout everyone here knows that the things that go bump in the exist, we also jus' 'bout know its harder than hell to prove. I know what I have seen, jus' like the rest of ya'll. I know I ain't crazy and I'm willin' to bet most of ya'll ain't either. Its people with the mindset like ol' Skeptic here that jus' make us have to work that much harder to prove it. Do I think he is wrong for that, hell no, heck I thank him. Its his rational thinkin' and need for proof that keeps the fellas like me that know and believe grounded. As for all this nonsense goin' on right here, may I remind you ya'll we are a closely knit society, a team as it were, here to support one another, help one another, and have each other's back. We can't just be arguing with each other non-stop, its counter-productive. Jus' remember, WWVLD?

Oh, an' welcome to the Society Tanya. Aside from the occasional yahoo, we are pretty close knit group that actually knows what they're doing.

[skeptic]

Falsifiability is relevant to anything claimed to be scientific in nature.
Evidence of an unfalsifiable claim does not neutralise the unfalsifiability of the claim.
Calling something evidence does not a priori make it evidence.
That's why retractions of even peer reviewed work exist.

Research exists.
Does not mean money is not an issue.
Medicine exists.
Does not mean money is not an issue.

Operating rationally and logically is always relevant.
Scientists are guided by among other things two axioms.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
If I tell someone I took the Red Eye to Vegas and showed them a hotel receipt, that is not an extraordinary claim.
If I tell someone I flew to Vegas on a pink unicorn and showed them a hotel receipt, then I have more work on my hands.
There are also scientific underpinnings to the second axiom, particularly statistics which can measure how extraordinary the evidence has to be.
So reminding people here about these things is always relevant.
If anyone disagrees that it is relevant, well their problems run far deeper than the any reason can reach.

I am willing to try.
By definition I have not dismissed anything.

Was Annabelle sent the same paper work you sent Last Moon when making contact with you?

I have never said anyone cannot explain it or that their explanation of it is wrong.
I am not the one failing to deal in facts of the matter.

[skeptic]

Holister I agree and appreciate the sentiments.
Too bad I was jumped by a straw man and high school grade peer pressure in the attempt to participate.

[Holister]

Greetin's

Proof's in the puddin', and it ain't always vanilla.

[Cybermancer]

Victor Lazlo was a scientist who constantly debated and argued with skeptics throughout his career. He would happily confront any skeptic on this forum with evidence of the supernatural.

Debate is a part of science and the search for knowledge.

Victor Lazlo knew that and was actively engaged on the debate over the existence of the supernatural. That is why we now have this site.

[Holister]

Greetin's

Yup, that is all quite true, yes quite true. But I bet he wouldn't be a dick to folks when he went bout doin' it is all I'm sayin'.

Have yerself a nice day now.

[Cybermancer]

I'll let the science speak for itself.

[Holister]

Jus' love the sound of your own voice doncha huh.

[Phoenix]

Jus' love the sound of your own voice doncha huh.

Are you here to discuss the subject matter of my thread, or just to troll someone you don't like? He just said he'd let the science do the talking, ending the debate between them until the science can settle it. Not another long winded rebuttal, of which skeptic is just as guilty of. Just an admission to let the science do the talking. Your jab in the face of that is petty hypocrisy.

Also something Victor Lazlo wouldn't do.

[Holister]

1) Try readin' the previous posts cause I was just stickin' up for a friend.
2) I don't like pompous know it alls that like to run at the mouth cause they think they're smarter than the rest of us.

So with that said, I will be more than happy to let you get back to your thread now, which I commented on earlier {and wll what do you know on topic too}. So don't you try telling me my business again.

[Phoenix]

1) Try readin' the previous posts cause I was just stickin' up for a friend.

Read them. Sceptic didn't need your help. And what you were doing was making passive aggressive jabs followed by outright attacks against someone you don't like. The rest is self-righteous bullshit to give you a veneer of legitimacy.

2) I don't like pompous know it alls that like to run at the mouth cause they think they're smarter than the rest of us.

Skeptic is every bit as guilty of that as Cybermancer. You don't call him out on it because your goal is to attack Cybermancer. In fact, you continue to take cheap shots after he's quit the field with a very reasonable declaration to let the science do that talking. As opposed to continuing the very thing you try to accuse him of.

So with that said, I will be more than happy to let you get back to your thread now, which I commented on earlier {and wll what do you know on topic too}. So don't you try telling me my business again.

Your one post in this thread that was on topic was left alone. Most of your petty little jabs were too. You persisted and continue to persist after it is ended.

So I will continue to call you out for your petty jabs as long as you continue to make them.

[Cybermancer]

Let it go Phoenix. Everyone on this site can read and judge for themselves.