Buisness

[Joe Smith]

.600 is just way too large a round for derriger type all and uses a very slow burning powder because they are a low pressure round.

A 45-70, 445 Supermag, or 50 S&W mag is about the largest round that is fireable from a repeating pistol, in terms of muzzle energy. I did have a customer commision a .458 winchester pop out that strapped to his fore arm. When he pulled his had all the way back, it would pop forward several inches and, doing it again would fire it.

We tested it and it the only way to guarentee a hit was too stick the barrel rightup against whatever you were shooting at. It also got hot enough to burn the inside of his wrist.

Ron, if you want to not get the funny looks from the other gunsmiths for "odd" requests - get into the movie biz. Odd requests are the norm, and nobody thinks anything of them!

[Logan]

If you say so, that's why I leave the design and build to real experts, I just shoot em.

Wasn't looking for repeating capability, just as much knockdown as I can fit literally up my sleeves - and I wasn't kidding about them being for grappleing ranges, if I have to use them, I intend on having barrel to skin ranges. It's for those particularly big boys we don't know how to hurt when they decide to pick a person up and gnosh on em - broken wrists beats missing body parts. As long as it's the maximum stopping power you guys say can be sleeved either as a derringer break action, or a strapped on tube gun, I'll your word for it. (a break action is easier to work on for you guys, right?)

[Ron Caliburn]

Showpiece, alright, we'll see what we can do.

For the 12 gauges I'm thinking something like this - though if length is an issue we could look at a box magazine type feed to shorten the barrel.

As for the 10 gauge in pump action, I could start with a Browning BPS and modify the ergonomics for something a little more combat capable (pistol grip, folding stock, etc). Since you only wanted 4 rounds I could shorten the magazine and the barrel considerably, probably dropping the length with stock out to around 36 to 40 inches, depending how everything works out.

As for the .600 derringer, the muzzle blast on such a short barrel is going to be too intense. If the barrel isn't considerably past the end of your arm you're looking at flash burns to your hand, bruising from the pressure wave, maybe even lacerations and fractures. Your elbow and shoulder joints are probably not going to thank you much either, even if you get the muzzle far enough past your hand to avoid muzzle blast associated injuries. So like Joe says, too much round for too little gun. 10 gauge would be better, but probably still too much. I'm not a big fan of weapons that might take the other guy out of the fight but will take you out. Perhaps a .410 based system would be a better choice, there are some double barrel derringers out there already in that size.

Truthfully I think you might be better off looking at more controllable weapons for better shot placement than simply using massive power.

[Logan]

I like the shotguns, they'll do nicely I think.

On the hold outs, what's critical isn't the ability to wound the target, nor the condition of my wrists afterword (although being in one piece afterward is definately a plus). What's important as that the violence of the impact moves the target by the maximum amount allowable by the physics involved.

[Ron Caliburn]

Well then Logan I think you're going to be disappointed.

Basic laws of motion means that to move said creature a foot backward, you'd need to expose yourself to a force that would also move you a foot backwards. While firing some weapons can knock over a person who is unprepared for them, it takes a truly massive force to knock them flying.

Here's an example of a reasonably sized person with a 10 gauge. They don't go flying.

Here we are with .700 Nitro (a step up from the 600) and again we don't go flying.

Finally, here we have a 76mm shoulder fired mortar. Again nobody goes flying, though we have one shooter loosing their balance and falling over.

Regrettably, short of an explosive device, you're just not going to get the kind of push you want exerted on the target.

[Logan]

I'm not expecting airtime from the target, although I will admit the faint hope was there. I'm looking for the ability to rock the target, to unbalance and stagger it, mebbe even put it on it's ass if I'm that lucky.

I do understand newton's third law, I also understand that some weapons, particularly those with larger slower moving peices of lead apply a much better knock-down force than a much faster slightly smaller peice of lead.

[Ron Caliburn]

However, knock down force is essentially non-existent on any round small enough to be fired from a man portable weapon.

Heck, on Mythbusters they even shot a dummy from 22 feet with a 12 gauge and a .50 browning and failed to achieve much greater movement than they did hitting it with a baseball.

So again, except for an explosion, you're not going to get the kind of effect you are hoping for.

You might surprise and startle them, but that's the extent of them going off balance.

[Joe Smith]

Shock effect can work to stun or knock over a normal living person. Its basically a short circuit of the nervous system by the trauma. You basically stun the person like with a knockout punch.

Large, flat faced, slow to medium velocity bullets have the greatest shock effect.

[Cybermancer]

Shock effect can work to stun or knock over a normal living person. Its basically a short circuit of the nervous system by the trauma. You basically stun the person like with a knockout punch.

Large, flat faced, slow to medium velocity bullets have the greatest shock effect.

Yes, but what is being discussed here is kinetic force, not biological effects. Biological effects that occur in humans may not occur the same way or at all in non-human (or even non-organic) targets.

Logan is looking for a kinetic blow that will knock down a target that is much larger than a human. Mr. Caliburn is right, what he wants is explosives.

[Logan]

Joe, thanks, that clears up a bit of the confusion. I always thought that the "sit down" from my 1911 was just kinetic in it's cause.

I was thinking about the rifle launched batons, and bean-bag rounds that police use for riot controll, and hoping for something with a similar effect in a smaller package.

I know the effect can be achieved, I just don't know if it's possible to get it into something that I could use in the field.

If the regulations on aquireing explosives through civilian sources weren't so stringent, I'd be asking for something with a shaped charge designed for impact rather than penetration.

[Cybermancer]

Be careful when looking to induce purely biological effects observed in humans and other creatures against targets that they may not be relevant to. Even physical, kinetic effects may not always work the way you want or would normally expect.

Knowing the exact nature of the target would make advising on the type of munition easier.

[Logan]

I am not at liberty to publicly discuss details of an upcoming operation.

I am however at liberty to conduct said operations how I see fit including the use of outside talent.

Caliburn, the breifcase piece and the shotguns are a go, they'll meet the mission requirements for that job nicely as described.

[Ron Caliburn]

Baton and beanbag rounds don't knock the target down, they inflict enough pain to stun the target, without producing the trauma associated with proper bullets.


I'll have those other toys ready for you Logan.

[Logan]

Again, damnit. Well, then I guess go for the most kinetic transfer you can put in a break action hold out.

By the way, the last local bloodsucker I saw was wearing a vest with a trauma plate, had to pump a clip into him from the side to make him drop Eddie. Watch your ass out there, I don't like it when the enemy starts adapting to us.

[Ron Caliburn]

Yeah, not surprised one of them figured out that trick. I figure my silver spike launcher has a high enough sectional density it should power through. I also use garlic spray to blind the suckers, give me a chance to set up flank and rear shots.

[Grace]

Trauma plates won't stop a high powered rifle round. And if there's a use for the .50 DE, that would be it.

[Joe Smith]

Trauma plates won't stop most high powered piston rounds. They just punch through if they don't have a soft nose bullet.

And if they don't puch through, you simply push the plate into the target several inches as it deforms. I don't know if that will stop a bloodsucker, but it might get its attention.

Silver rounds are harder than lead and have much better penetration unless you aneal them to dead soft. Does silver work on vamps?

[Grace]

I'm not a weapon's smith by any means but there is a 30mm grenade launched by a 9mm cartridge.

It is normally fired by this Soviet weapon system or alternately this weapon system.

The whole rig would probably take up your entire forearm and you'd need a pretty wide sleeve to conceal it and still be able to fire. On the plus side, it would have the recoil of a 9mm with a blast able to punch through 10mm of armor. Definitely a soft skinned vehicle stopper if you get the engine. I don't know explosives but I imagine it might knock a person off their feet with the explosive charge.

The geniuses here might be able to start with this concept and turn it into something really workable.

[Logan]

Joe, problem is the round needs to stay in the target, if you puch through vests, you tend to overpenetrate.

Nemesis, that is beautifull. You keep teasin me like that and we may have to arrange a face to face and some range time.

Think you gents can come up with something based on that? If the legalities on the explosives is an issue, let me know - I'm sure I can send an appropriately papered powder-monkey to perform the fill and proper federal packaging for transport of the finished product.

[Ron Caliburn]

I punched it through the table and the round would have comparable recoil to a .357 magnum based on the figures at the sites provided.

As I mentioned, you'd need explosives for the kind of knock back we are talking about . . . however, Logan you were also saying about using this as a point contact weapon.

Which means the round would be detonating right next to you.

This definitely would be a one use device because you wouldn't survive firing.

[Grace]

Meh. The recoil from the .357 is manageable and if it's an issue, there are things that can be done to lower it. I was pointing it out as a starting point. Considering that it was made with technology from before I was even born, I'm sure more could be done with less, such as a 20mm explosive.

As a contact weapon, he'll certainly lose his arm but with body armor he might survive the explosion. Especially from a shaped charge.

Given what he wants to use it against and the scenerio he's envisioning, a lost arm and a slim chance of survival is better than none at all.

For myself, I'll be sticking to ranged weapons. If nothing else, they provide a decent head start when the running starts.

[Logan]

Nice timing, Nemesis

Could the charge be shaped in such a manner that the blast is all channeled one direction?

If not, I'd still like the launcher up my sleeve (if the tube sticks past the cuff, the grenade doesn't have to fit right?), and a shaped charge / EFP grenade for it along with a specialized frag I came across.

Not sure if I can describe these well enough but here goes. Explosive core, tightly wrapped in iron wire braid, diameter close to that of a clothes hangar, looks like the casing was then dipped in molten silver before repeating the process with copper wire.

[Ron Caliburn]

A shaped charge doesn't channel the force of the explosion in 1 direction, it creates a jet of blast force that is focused at a particular point in addition to the usual area effects. It is possible to use a lesser charge and the shaping of said charge to produce the results at that point comparable to a much larger charge, but it would have a reduced area effect. Also, at that focal point there tends to be a cutting effect, not a blast effect (which is why shaped charges are so popular for anti-tank work).

So if we made it a shaped charge, we may reduce the area effects, but not eliminate them. Also, we'd see a cutting, rather than pushing force on the target.

So are you looking for a push back effect still or are you looking for something different?

In regards for the grenade - could be easy enough to make - a silver coated fragmentation sleeve, but again you might not get what you're hoping for. Only one surface of the fragments would be coated with silver and there is good odds that the force of the explosion would cause the silver to shed from the fragments. Silver is a hard metal, which also makes it brittle. So while the softer iron or steel fragments will deform as the explosion pushes them, the silver will shatter into tiny, dust like flakes that won't retain the energy to do much good.

End result would be a high velocity silver dust that is dangerous to vampires and werebeasts right next to the grenade, and a slower velocity metal fragments that are dangerous to us much further from the grenade.

If you want the silver to be useful fragments, you're going to need the fragments to be pre-made from solid silver and tightly packed into a pre-arranged pattern, which is time consuming and expensive.

[Grace]

You know, if you fire the explosive projectile at about 10ft, it's still pretty much point blank. And that's about as far as it's going to be accurate anyway.

If you're wearing body armor, you stand a better chance of survival at ten feet then if the target is literally on top of you. I mean, there's no guarantee that you'd survive at that range but some chance is better than none. Firing from behind cover would be ideal, of course.

At point blank range, you're definitely losing your arm and probably winding up dead. There is a chance of surviving but those chances are for those who like playing the Power Ball lottery. And we all know there's no way to guarantee success at that, right?

But then, if you're like me and just want one last chance to hurt the enemy before dieing, then your survival need not be a factor that the designer worries about. But then why be worried about knock back, right?

Realistically, if the thing you described to me is ten feet away, you're going to want to start knocking it back right away as you may well be within it's arm reach by that point.

I'm not a weapons designer but my practical experience with weapons suggests that you may want to adjust your intended tactic a little bit to accommodate what can be done with existing technology.

[Ron Caliburn]

This weapons is slightly less dangerous to the user at 10 feet, but at contact you might as well wear an explosive belt.

[Logan]

Caliburn, I'd still like something with that grenade launcher though - it looks like it could fill several of the roles of an RPG-7 in a much more concealable device, especially after you have your way with it.


Nemesis believe me, I am adjusting tactics, normally before it's even implimented and tried. Ive gone from a heavy slug, to explosives, to looking like I'll have to try a K-bar if the thing gets it's mitts on me.

Oh and lets just say meeting a few ladies like yourself has had me in the habit of keeping "protection" handy if not on at all times.

Realisticly, doll, if that thing gets within 10 feet of me, I'm probably already snatched unless it's hands are full.

Interesting note, an australian firm has a formula it uses to win lotteries at will - when the value reaches a certain point, this firm buys a ticket for each possible combination, thereby insuring that they recieve the winnings.

[Ron Caliburn]

So you want me to make something with a 5 oz projectile, launched at low velocity from a weapon without sights or useful ergonomics, to fulfil the roll of a weapon that launches projectiles weighing up to 10 lbs to a range of about 500 yards?

Let me know when you want to be serious.

[Doctor Boggs]

If someone's looking for high shock value at point blank range is there any possibility of amping up some sort of electrical weapon? Like a tazer or cattle prod, but stepped up somehow?

I would imagine there are several technical concerns, none of which I know fig about. But worth asking.

[Ron Caliburn]

Biggest concern is making sure the shock doesn't loop back into the user. After that it's about how heavy a power source you're willing to take for a desired effect.

[Doctor Boggs]

So it's a possibility? Good to know Mr Caliburn, maybe I could PM ya later and hash out a few details.