The Origins of Vampires

[Nemesis]

There's a few problems with your arguements. Starting with the fact that your assertion that the translations of Isaiah are deliberate mistranslations. Even amongst those who translate it as meaning 'Screech Owl' or 'Night bird' some have left open the possiblity of it being a demon, as they put 'Night Monster' in the margins. In fact it is often translated as either night bird, night creature or night monster. There is no absolute consensus that your view is correct.

As for C.E., your pet peeve doesn't change the fact that it is a common and widely accepted dating system. I use it, as do others. Your distaste for it doesn't mean 'its not a date'. It simply means you prefer not to use it.

Thus far, your arguement seems to be similar to saying that the Statue of Liberty is not American because it was first built by the French. What really makes it odd is that I'm not argueing for being Jewish or not. I'm saying the whole label is inappropriate as it is a human label. As for her place in myth and folklore, she is part of Jewish traditions, regardless of where she originated or when she was added. She's also a part of Babylonian folklore. Possibly others.

[Ron Caliburn]

I'm not about to ask her, however. Her answers are always very costly.

Which is also why there will be no interviews granted for anyone wishing to speak with through my daughter. Likewise, for the time being, other than those already working on the situation, none shall be permitted to examine my daughter or attempt to treat my daughter.

For now Lilith is contained, so I am not going to risk disturbing that, especially in dealing with outsiders who I know little or nothing about.

So if there is anybody wishing to do research into Lilith through my daughter, I recommend you stop looking for her, make yourself and your intentions publicly known and then, and only then, if myself, Darcy and Cynthia are all convinced that it is safe to proceed will we begin discussing such with you.

My family doesn't react to surprises too well, or rather we react to them swiftly and with maximum aggression. You have been warned.

[Nemesis]

The_Unicorn,

The above statement by my Papa wasn't aimed specifically at you and has nothing to do with your discussion, just so you know. Just a related tangent and he's duly warning other interested parties. If you have more rebuttal, please feel free to make it without reprecussion.

[Ron Caliburn]

Yes, discussion on this forum is certainly welcome. My comments were addressed to those wanting an in-person discussion.

[Cybermancer]

Everyone is entitled to share their opinions.

[FriarJohn]

The Isiah text is, I assume, 34:14. I had forgotten about this passage - mostly because I blocked out my Exegisis class from memory. I mean 7:30 in the morning Monday/Wendsday/Friday in Chelsea? Hangovers were the single most common reason for missing the first 45 minuets of a 90 minuet class ...

I digress ...

The NJPS Translation is: "Wildcats shall meet hyenas, Goat-demons shall greet each other; There too the lilth (LYLYH) shall repose and find herself a resting place."

The Critical Aparatus at the botom of the page in my Hebrew Bible was a muddel.

After flipping around through the lexicons I found that it seems to be a Babylonian loan word and that it apears exactly once, and has no real root. It may be related to the word for "night" but the main Lexicon for Hebrew in English is not so sure. It also aprears in Chaldean texts. All of the sources are quiet clear that this is some sort of "night demon," and the Brow Drivers Briggs refers readers to the a French commentary on the Talmud, which I do not own.

Since I have no real life, and suffer from insomnia, I dug out my copy of the Talmud. In it we have but five, scant texts. The first is a recomendation to not sleep alone - for the Lilith might seize you. The second is a text that states that evil spirits, including the lilin (plural), were born of the nocternal emitions of Adam when he fasted, prayed, and was "removed" from Eve fro 130 years. The third states that she wore/wears her hair long. The fourth refers to her son Hormin running (playing) on the walls of Mahuza/Al-Mada'in, the then capital of the Persians, near modern Bagdad. The fifth speaks of miscariages of childeren who "look like Lilith" with wings.

The curious thing to me is that we have a clear set of refernces to a singular, specific creature, and a reference to a set of plural creatures. Not being a linguist, nor having much by way of resources at hand the Chaldie/Babylonian sources it's a dea end for me.

[Ron Caliburn]

So we have one or more of these creatures and no real idea which is the case?

Sounding a lot like the Master-Minion set up that some vampires have actually, I wonder if destroying the Master will have a similar effect?

[FriarJohn]

Indeed, Mr Caliburn. I might go so far as to hazard a guess that Lilith may be the first (recorded) Master.

There are no mentions of Lilith in the Mishnah, at least as far as I can trust the index and other books I have.

The Dead Sea scrolls have a reference to a "Seductress" who's description is very simialr to the description from Proverbs 2:16, 18 &19: "It will save you from the forbidden (lit. heb. "strange"), from the alien woman whose talk is smooth, ... Her house sinks down to Death, and her course leads to the shades. All who go to her cannot return and find again the paths of life"

The Book of Proverbs uses the image of the wise and foolish woman both as advice for marriage, but also as stand ins for the Hokma, or wisdom of God, and this second, tempting force. The entierty of Chapter seven could also be read as a description of this negative "Strange" woman.

There is also a description of the "Bastard" deamons who sem to follow in the wake of Lillith, but again, no really clear picture.

So yea, we seem to have one Lillith and a "race" of creatures like her, of both genders.

[Ron Caliburn]

So truly destroying her would probably one of the biggest victories against Vampires ever.

Of course she seems to be harder to destroy than the normal, so we obviously need to come up with a different plan.

Thank you Friar.

[Hannah]

A timely one too, before she does any more damage.

Hannah

[Gotham Witch]

Glad to see you're still about, Friar, and thank you for the insight.

How's Washington treating you?