The weight of sin...

[KonThaak]

Christianity...in general...defines a "sin" as a thought, action, or belief that takes one away from God... I...I choose to define it a bit differently... I think...I think a sin is anything that one person does to deliberately harm another, with no regard for others... Considering...that the only definition that one can lay on "God", according to the Bible, is that "God is love"...then the two definitions aren't exactly incompatible...

Considering...the events that happened on Halloween...I want to know...what everyone else thinks... Are...are sins...no matter how you define them...forgivable...? If someone goes out...and just randomly murders a family with children...just for kicks...can they ever be forgiven...?

I'm looking for more than the textbook Christian response... I need something more than just, "If they repent"... I want to know...as far as this world is concerned... Can an UNJUSTIFIABLE SIN be forgiven...?

As to the events leading up to and including Halloween...the only ones who committed such acts...were Windner, Khavik, and Malakai...

[DroopyDawg]

Can an UNJUSTIFIABLE SIN be forgiven...?

The proper Christian response is “yes, God forgives all who request forgiveness and repents of their sins.” Do note that this requires two separate conscious acts “request forgiveness” and “repent of their sins”. One act without the other is insufficient to gain forgiveness. What does this mean? Firstly one must desire forgiveness and feel themselves worthy of forgiveness. Then they must accept the impact of their sins on themselves and others, and ensure that they no longer perform those sins. Now this is basically the nuts and bolts of Protestant Christian forgiveness, and this was what was not asked for. The funny thing is that this can hold true for us to forgive as well, but not necessarily.

The meaning of forgiveness, as it comes to you and I, the common folk of the multiverse, comes basically in two parts, one the forgiveness of self and two the forgiveness of others. Now before I go any further, one major clarification must be made, forgiveness DOES NOT mean forget. The one thing we can never do is forget, unless the person who is forgiven proves themselves beyond a shadow of a doubt, but that is for each person to decide on their own.

As the question appears to be asked in regards to the forgiveness of others I will address that, if others feel they desire a in depth discussion on forgiveness of self I will be more than willing to delve in to the subject then. When it comes to forgiving others for their actions, the first thing that needs to be looked at is who the beneficiary of the act of forgiveness is. In most cases the person, or being, which did the actions, will have no need or care for forgiveness, because they do not find their actions or their self, in need of forgiveness. So who then is the beneficiary? It is the person who is doing the forgiving that gains most by the act of forgiveness.

The act of forgiveness is the forgiver giving their self permission to move on in life and stop dwelling on the actions of another. It most cases the person who is impacted by the unjustifiable actions of another feels guilty to let go of what the other person did. People often feel that if they let go, then the innocents, or comrades, or whomever that was also impacted by the actions of the same being, will hold them accountable for the actions of the being. This is because they are not being properly honored, whether in life or death. The truth of the matter is that most people would rather you to live your life and move on so that you may help others, rather than hold yourself back because you were unable to arrive sooner, or react faster, or whatever you needed to do to prevent the unjustifiable actions.

I know I said that I wouldn’t delve in to personal forgiveness, yet the more I talk I see that this maybe a situation where one hides behind the other. You ask how to forgive unjustifiable acts caused by another. I ask you are you worried about how to forgive someone else or are you indirectly looking for permission to forgive yourself? Could you be looking for permission to forgive yourself, for being unable to prevent the unjustifiable actions from occurring in the first place?

I will let you think on this and see if you have a response. Unfortunately it is late and I need to get to bed, still got to work tomorrow.

Droopy Dawg

P.S. Delveing in to the question of what "God" is or is not can be fun too if we desire to play in that sand pit.

[KonThaak]

Thanks... I'm...I'm not entirely sure why I asked the question in the first place... There...were a lot of issues regarding sin and morality that came up, and...and I wanted to see what everyone else said...

Someone I care for and respect a lot ended up hurting themselves very recently... I'm not sure how they feel about it, but I would imagine they're blaming themselves for a lot, and...and I think I kinda hoped that they would see someone post an answer that would help... That individual didn't commit an unjustifiable sin, but...but if someone could come up with an argument, based entirely in the field of ethics, I was hoping maybe they could start down the path to accepting that there are worse people out there...

I'm not saying who... That description may not even necessarily just refer to one person... Just...I dunno, I really don't...

Maybe it's just my stir-craziness talking... Even harder than barely being able to move around is the fact that I can't bear any kind of light, anymore, especially not sunlight...

Sorry... I don't mean to use you guys...

[DroopyDawg]

Sorry... I don't mean to use you guys...

Josh,

If you can not lean on the shoulders of friends and comrads when you need it most then why have them.

I am fading fast, but I will comment further tomorrow.

Droopy Dawg

[DroopyDawg]

Originally this was to be directed to KT and all others who joined in the events that surrounded Halloween night. Now I realize that this applies to each and every one of us. So everyone take time to read through this and see if you need to forgive yourself.

I have now read the posting in War Stories from yesterday and I think I may understand a little more of why the question of forgiveness was posted. There are most likely right now many people who need to forgive each other, as well as forgiving their selves. Firstly it is needed to be understood that forgiveness is a conscious decision on the behalf of the forgiver. If you are not remorseful of your actions then you can not desire or ask for forgiveness, and as such is often indicative of more serious issues. As I have the sense that most if not all of the people, from this board, who were in the situations that arose are remorseful of their actions therefore forgiveness is possible.

To forgive one’s self what has to happen is first you must accept that you are able to be forgiven. Often times our actions will be forgiven by everyone but ourselves. This is often because we believe that our actions were so abhorrent, that forgiveness can never be ours. It usually doesn’t matter how often those around us tell us that it is ok, we still can find fault.

The problem is that many people, who will not forgive themselves, wind up making themselves miserable. They then see how their actions continue to impact those around them, which then gives them more ammunition to use against their selves. This in turn then makes them more miserable. So, the vicious cycle begins that starts with self recrimination and ends with someone alone in a room staring at the wrong end of a gun. I would love to avoid this at all costs.

Each of you is worthy of forgiveness. Why? Because the actions each of you took, were taken in the heat of the moment. If any of you had had all of the information that you had at the end of night, at the beginning, then many of the actions you did, would not have been taken. The statement that hind sight is 20/20, I personally believe to be a lie. Because, one, we still may not have all of the information even after the fact, and two we often expect ourselves to have had the information even when we did not. We will sit there and say, “I should have known” and since we did not, we are then responsible for our lack of knowledge. Remember, it is ok to examine the actions in the past with eyes that are in the present, but never judge the past with any eyes but those that are in the past. You have to be able to accept that you are allowed to make mistakes.

Forgiving ourselves is allowing ourselves to make mistakes. Whether we feel another is worthy of forgiveness or not should have no impact on whether we forgive ourselves. You have to realize that even if, “to err is human”, those of you who feel you are not or no longer human, will still make mistakes. How often do our enemies make mistakes? Everyone makes mistakes, we have no choice. So you need to learn to forgive yourself of your mistakes and learn from them. Again forgiveness does not and never will mean forgetting. We can not forget the errors of our actions, but we can accept that the outcome is often beyond our control and as such realize that we can not hold ourselves ultimately accountable for those things we can not control.

I give a challenge to all, whether or not you participated in the activities of that night, and I do mean all. If you feel yourself unworthy of forgiveness then PM me and we can discuss the specifics of why you feel this way. I admit I am not a psychologist yet, but I am trying to get into school to become one. What I do have though is a willingness to listen, as my mother says, the patience of Job, and the gift of understanding. I do not judge, and I will not share unless I am given permission to.

Droopy Dawg

[concrete_Angel]

Know what? Screw that. Sometimes there's just no real answer, and people need to be able to accept the fact that some things are just totally random. There are about as many definitions of a sin as there are people who commit them. Accept that random acts occur, and there's nothing that you can do.

[GhostSpider]

Angel, other people besides you are suffering too. KT's just looking for peace of mind. Don't try and minimalize that.

[concrete_Angel]

What am I trying to minimize? The fact that random acts occur every day that people will inevitably try to figure out the hidden, significant meaning behind it, despite the fact that some things are happening arbitrarily and can not have a true meaning applied to it? Well, excuse me, but not every action on the face of the planet can be philosophically represented, because sometimes, there's just no real way that it can be explained other than the fact that it happened.

Are you going to try to determine whether a hurricane has committed a sinful act when it destroys millions of homes and lives? NO! It's an act of nature. you can't just go around putting deep significance behind an event that just happens without reason. If an act of circumstance happens, it just happens. Tough shit if you can't accept that.

[KonThaak]

Angel... Windner didn't "just happen". James' death wasn't some accidental occurrence. Hammer didn't need to die. It wasn't some arbitrary action that left me in Gabe's body. It wasn't some weird, sick twist of fate that caused Gabe to get shot up in mine. Three families will miss Thanksgiving and Christmas this year and every year from now on because some bloodsucking jackass decided to fuck them and two other families over. These aren't just some arbitrary things. People decided that these things should happen, for no other reason than it amused them, and they put people like us into some very uncomfortable positions.

I'm sorry for you, I really am... If...if I were there and capable, I'd have a memorial for everyone who died...but...I'm not, and I can't, unless we have it in the middle of the night and leave out the candles and the until-morning-light vigil.

I'm not the only one hurt by these peoples' actions, either. I was targeted specifically because of who I was, but several of us were also specifically targeted to be hurt... It's not just for my sake that I asked these things.

I know you're hurting, Angel...and I'm sorry. But you're not the only one...

[A. Pendragon]

Even harder than barely being able to move around is the fact that I can't bear any kind of light, anymore, especially not sunlight...

Sorry... I don't mean to use you guys...

Wait, did I miss something? You arent becoming a blood sucker are you? You arent becoming some sort of fucking vampire? With your connection to Gabriel, I would hate to have to put you down. Heal yourself druid. Do not let yourself become a threat.

[Malakai]

As to the events leading up to and including Halloween...the only ones who committed such acts...were Windner, Khavik, and Malakai...

Did someone call my name? Whats the matter druid? Dont feel good? I am feeling aboslutely energized. Sleeping much lately? Of course you arent. I know, I have been watching you. Well more accurately, I have been watching your entire family.

[KonThaak]

Pendragon: I am, for all intents and purposes, what Gabe once was... I'm not a vampire, just an animated bit of darkness energy...brought to life by a will that just refused to die completely...

Malakai: You're a fool. I'm not with my family. If you were actually watching either of us, you'd know that. You can't even bother to read the boards to properly know where I am right now, so I'm just not gonna bother telling you...

Even if you were watching my family, you'd know that they're still plenty well-protected. Lex's "resin army" has grown since I've last been there, and even though Claw is now missing, Cubrious is still there, not to mention several other house-spirits that're floating around, all of my, Ghost's, and Michael's wards, my personal amulets left behind to help protect Lex and Julian...

Y'know what? Please, do us all a favor and go after them. It'd be about time that a monster was suicidally helpful to our cause...

[Malakai]

Druid, I never said I was watching all together. I am merely taking turns between you and them.

[DroopyDawg]

Without getting into a debate over destiny, there are a couple of comments that I feel need to be addressed.

The fact that random acts occur every day that people will inevitably try to figure out the hidden, significant meaning behind it, despite the fact that some things are happening arbitrarily and can not have a true meaning applied to it?

Angel, you are right that uncontrollable things happen. When humanity is impacted by uncontrollable events, there is a desire to understand the hows and whys that this could have happened. To add to the complications, often time we will then also attempt to lay blame. If we can find no one to blame, then often we wind up blaming ourselves or life in general. Because it either should never have happened, or we should have had some control over the situation. We also can get mad at everything because we feel we have no control.

People decided that these things should happen, for no other reason than it amused them, and they put people like us into some very uncomfortable positions.

KT, some of the things that happened that night I am certain were intentional. Unless Winder and the others intended to have all of there minions die, as well theirselves, then not everything went according to plan. Unless there is a "master" orchastrator to all events of that night. Remember that all plans in combat do not survive the first contact with the enemy. This is true for the enemy as well.I assure you that a number of things that occurred were pure happenstance.

Outside of our actions, what we can control is so little that it’s practically negligible. On top of that, not all of our own actions are fully under our control. Regardless of whether you believe that life is guided by fate or luck, most things are outside of our direct intervention. This is part of the reason that mankind created religion and philosophy. It is through these that we seek to understand that which we can’t control.

Remember, we live in now. We can neither change the past, nor control the future. Also, life is that thing that happens while we are busy making other plans. Do not feel that you have to control life to "live" your life. Life is taking the choices you are given and making the most from them.

I still offer an ear to any who would use it, just PM me. You can’t beat my price, which is free.

Droopy Dawg

[concrete_Angel]

Remember, we live in now. We can neither change the past, nor control the future. Also, life is that thing that happens while we are busy making other plans. Do not feel that you have to control life to "live" your life. Life is taking the choices you are given and making the most from them.

I'm not about to spend the rest of my life getting all melodramatic about death. Wastes too much time. Of course I don't want my family to all be dead, but what the hell am I going to do about it right now? I have a few problems that are more important right now.

[Ron Caliburn]

There ain't no justified sins Josh . . . so describing some as unjustified is meaningless.

Forgiveness of sin? Not in our power to know. We can forgive those that wrong us . . . though few of us have the strength or wisedom to do it properly. But the sin itself is still waiting to be judged.

Some of us have punishments waiting for us after we die . . . if you beleive in that. Some of us don't.

Some of us have the punishments here looking them in the face every day.

All that matters is what you do with your time while you have it, the rest is outta your hands.

[KonThaak]

I...I don't know if you'll see this or not tonight... I know I've said this to you in person...but...I forgive you, Ron...

[DroopyDawg]

Forgiveness of sin? Not in our power to know. We can forgive those that wrong us . . . though few of us have the strength or wisedom to do it properly. But the sin itself is still waiting to be judged.

Ron,
You are right the we can forgive others. Don't forget though, that often the person we most need to forgive is ourselves. Forgiveness is most often something that we do for ourselves. It gives us the ability to move past the deeds of others. Yet, when we are unable to forgive ourselves, then we start a downward spiral that I have seen some of the ends of, and they weren't pretty.

Some of us have the punishments here looking them in the face every day.

Most of the time these punishments are self inflicted.

All that matters is what you do with your time while you have it, the rest is outta your hands.

...I forgive you, Ron...

Others are willing to forgive you for what happened, can you do the same for yourself.

Droopy Dawg

[Ron Caliburn]

There are things that I haven't been forgiven for, by anyone who counts.

[Eilonwy Solstice]

There are things that I haven't been forgiven for, by anyone who counts.

On the other hand, there are things that you have been forgiven for, by those who count.

[Ron Caliburn]

Unfortunately the other list is far longer.

[KonThaak]

Oftentimes...we feel that we need others' forgiveness before we can forgive ourselves...when others feel that there is nothing to forgive... We agonize over this... We continue to blame ourselves... We want others to say they forgive us...and they don't even know they need to.

In this case...the best thing to do may be to apologize to those we feel we have wronged...where possible, at least...

[Ron Caliburn]

The dead usually don't hear requests.

[Contact_21]

I've been in the field a long time. The evil that surrounds us can be like a virus. It just seems to infect everyone. First, we have to deal with ourselves. There is evil in the world and there is good too. Accept the good but reject the evil. And yes, forgiving yourself can be hard, especially hard. Take it one day at a time. I pray to God for help. It helps.




Contact_21

[KonThaak]

Each to their own...

Ron... I've been thinking about what's been said...both off the boards and on... You may not be able to talk to the dead...and without proper information, I can't contact them through druidic means...but *the dead* don't haunt you. You have no angry spirits out for you. You have no marks on your soul that could've been left by a spirit who wanted to find you later for vengeance.

That means...to me...that even if you cannot ask the dead for forgiveness...that they have already moved beyond it. It's no longer an issue... All that's left to be done is to learn to forgive yourself.

[GhostSpider]

Been examining Ron's soul have we? With his permission I hope? Hate to see ya get wasted by one of our own KT.

[DroopyDawg]

GS,
In light of the situation, that's not funny. Not even slightly.

Droopy Dawg

[GhostSpider]

It was a valid point though.

[DroopyDawg]

Sadly enough, you are right there.

Droopy

[Edge Shadows]

KT Do you Forgive yourself?
Forgiveness of one self, terrible events occur that why we do what do (cuz its not for money that damn sure) If you can forgive yourself even unforgivable folly can be forgiveable in the eyes of lord