Reintroduction

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:56 pm

Just do not feel like you have to go it alone Azrael.

But I understand if you do.

Celeste Darken · Post by **Celeste Darken** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:12 pm

I am still tentative about you, Azrael. But I will set aside our . . . experiences . . . for later. Right now I have a question for DarKnyht. I am confused at your reasoning. And I believe my confusion stems from your signature. “The supernatural is the natural not yet understood.” – Elbert Hubbard.

And yet, you call us unnatural. I will not disagree with you on that point. Even after seven years, I find it disturbing that I cannot breathe. But back to the topic at hand; if your signature holds true, then what leg do you have to stand on? Is it because we are, as defined, “from another world”? What then, would be your take on the other worlds in our solar system? Would astronauts share this unnaturalness if they colonized the planet? And what of those mages who travel across dimensions and worlds? Are they then to be termed unnatural? And if that is the case, are they unnatural only so long as they are on that other world or dimension, or are they forever tainted? When the mages visit hell, are the demons already there the “natural” ones, and would you condone them tearing these “unnatural” visitors to shreds? If I were taken back to whatever hell spawn vampires, would I become “natural,” and thus, completely trusted?

Your new philosophy and your stated signature do not match. Which belief do you go by? Or have you just forgotten what you apparently used to believe?

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:14 pm

He is undergoing a life changing event.

His sig has not caught up with it yet.

Shadowstalker · Post by **Shadowstalker** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:17 pm

Moer than likely.

Celeste Darken · Post by **Celeste Darken** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:19 pm

Yes, I considered as much. But my questions about “natural” and “unnatural” still stand.

Shadowstalker · Post by **Shadowstalker** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:27 pm

I for one always liked KT's answer that everything is in fact natural. Just most of us don't fully understand how.

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:30 pm

Which is Dark's sig, I thought..

Shadowstalker · Post by **Shadowstalker** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:36 pm

Yeah Confusing Ain't it.

Kolya · Post by **Kolya** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:48 pm

Indeed.

Cyanide · Post by **Cyanide** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:33 pm

How does a hunter stray that far from taking down the wicked supernatural to wanting complete sanitization? Other than that, I'm growing weary of this talk of Mr. Clean wanting to spritz the world with bleach...

Shadowstalker · Post by **Shadowstalker** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:26 pm

I think I have an idea of where all of this is coming from, but I am not sure? Basicly DarKnyht was being manipulated by some nasties that presented themselves as the good guys? If I am wrong on this please correct me? But in tipical bad guy fashion they underestimated DarKnyht and tipped their hand to soon, basicly before the corruption they intended to sowe in his heart and soul had taken root. Again if I am mistating things please tell me.
Well as every one knows it is not nice to feel used, or to feel duped. So in response DarKnyht has gone to a extream shift in world veiw?
I think I understand why, I just don't agree with it, and I hope he understands soon that his present ideas are skewed again in a wrong direction.
As a few have already said our world is grey.

Cyanide · Post by **Cyanide** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:31 pm

Well then... It sucks to feel like the stupid person, but it happens. And this world can't and won't take a cleansing like described. Too many fight the correupt to let a twisted inspiration lead to such a disaster, we all know this to some point. The methods of a mad man work but not as well as someone that can think the same but be more stable.

DarKnyht · Post by **DarKnyht** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:32 pm

To answer Celeste the quote itself was speaking of science and how scientific phenomenon are often called supernatural occurrences until science can explain it. I have come to the conclusion that the things that I describe will not ever be explained by science and are thus outside of the natural occurrences of this planet.

The quote is a time when I was hopeful to explain everything. When I believed that humanity could co-exist with everything out there. As I stated before, I am am now something of an isolationist when it comes to our planetary policy. You leave us alone and you don't die.

I do not care about the other worlds or realities, I care about this one. If you naturally occur from the dimension you go to then yes, I guess you would be a natural creature there. If you are where you don't belong (naturally occurring in the environment), then you are unnatural to that environment. If a mage wants to go become an unnatural occurrence of another world then he risks being killed as an unnatural invader there, just as unnatural visitors here do. His place is in our world, not theirs.

To put it in some perspective, look at rabbits in Australia and all the damage they did to that ecosystem because they did not belong and were not natural to that environment. Much like rabbits, demons, monsters, undead and their like are not natural to this environment. They are harmful and thus must be removed before they irreversibly damage things here.

If you want to argue my view, please continue. However, I have work to get started on. And I don't believe that I am alone in my viewpoints, except perhaps on this board.

Cyanide · Post by **Cyanide** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:36 pm

DarKnyht wrote:I do not care about the other worlds or realities, I care about this one. If you naturally occur from the dimension you go to then yes, I guess you would be a natural creature there. If you are where you don't belong (naturally occurring in the environment), then you are unnatural to that environment. If a mage wants to go become an unnatural occurrence of another world then he risks being killed as an unnatural invader there, just as unnatural visitors here do. His place is in our world, not theirs.

Alright then skippy, since that part sparked my interests back into this... Does that mean that if enough of us think you shouldn't be allowed out of your bedroom anymore, that you have to now live there and never step back out?

Bert_the_Turtle · Post by **Bert_the_Turtle** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:45 pm

You can't use that argument to back up your beliefs Dark.

If you examine the relationship between humans and SupNats who prey on them, its definitely a Hunter/Prey relationship.

Humans are preyed upon by Supernatural Hunters. They are in turn, preyed upon by Human Hunters, a special subset of the Human Species that have developed special abilities and skills (most notably Psychics although some are regular people like myself). The difference here, is that those involved are Sentient! So it is not a cut and dry Hunter/Prey relationship as it seems.

Those like Cee, although not human, can side with the humans. Similarly humans can side with the SupNat predators.

Anyway, on many levels it does mimic a natural system and I do believe that the SupNats have been around as long as, if not longer than, humanity.

So, you go and ask yourself if they don't belong whether or not we want them here or not.

KonThaak · Post by **KonThaak** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:33 pm

DarKnyht wrote:Is the god that the priest prays to still a good and benign being when it tells the priest to kill every man, woman, in child living in the neighboring city just because they don't worship him? Or how about that shaman when he decides to bring plague upon the tribe because they didn't listen?

But at what point do you draw the line? When it comes to supernatural things, I believe they are all ultimately not good for humanity's future and they should all be removed. When it comes to individuals using supernatural powers, it is more of a person by person issue. If the person abuses or misuses the power, than the person should be dealt with in accordance with the risk they represent.

Now a question, how does a monk know that he is dealing with his ancestor and not a haunting entity or some similar creature? How does a priest know that it is his "god" talking to him and not a supernatural entity seeking to destroy our planet? How does a shaman know that he is not going to accidentally unleash elemental fury upon the earth? Does any of them stop and think about that when they open themselves to their respective powers/abilities or do they just blindly go for the benefit without thinking about the risk of causing harm?

I rather take offense at this. Historically speaking, yes, there have been a lot of times when people have been duped by entities claiming to be God, or their ancestors, or whoever else. (I blame much of the violence inherent in the Old Testament on imposters of the Creator and of people using the Creator's name and their own paranormal abilities to get what they want.) However, I would put forth that every single human being who was "duped" into behaving this way knew that it was wrong, on some level. They just didn't care, because they were reaping the rewards from their actions.

Those of us who commune with spirits almost always know the difference between a helpful, benevolent spirit and a darker, corrupt one. A benevolent one will never tell us to do something that goes against our beliefs, no matter how justified they can make it seem, no matter how they can twist things. No spirit, for instance, would ever convince me to kill another person or entity, no matter how much evidence they can put forth that it needs to be done... They will, however, guide me to a path of discovering the truth for myself.

That may not mean much to you, but to a lot of people, that's all the difference in the world.

I have come to the conclusion that the things that I describe will not ever be explained by science and are thus outside of the natural occurrences of this planet.

That's a terribly arrogant statement to make. We're still making revolutionary discoveries and making major revisions to former theories in the fields of quantum physics and other similar fields of science, which could very easily explain magic, psionics, and paranormal entities.

Making a statement like that belies a belief that we have reached the pinnacle of scientific understanding, and that we will never understand the world any better than we do right now. It's hubris. We've believed that since the beginning of time... Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we've long since surpassed the ideas of the Earth being the center of the universe, the sun existing on a floating crystal sphere, and maggots spontaneously generating from rotting meat.

To quote a movie, "Just imagine what we'll know tomorrow."

To put it in some perspective, look at rabbits in Australia and all the damage they did to that ecosystem because they did not belong and were not natural to that environment.

Again, I find this horribly offensive. Rabbits, creatures of this world and who obviously thrived (agreeably, far too well) in an "alien" environment, were moved against their will into that alien environment. Dingos were introduced into that environment to kill them off; now they are the "unnatural" predators, and dangers to the humans that brought them in to take care of the "unnatural" rabbits.

I know that people have been biting their tongues about this, but I won't. This statement is basically saying we should send all blacks back to Africa, all orientals back to Asia, and all whites back to Europe. By comparing rabbits to "supernatural" creatures, and movement from one continent into another to movement from one world or plane into another, this is the statement you are making.

...

There is no such thing as "unnatural" or "supernatural". Those are words everyone (myself included, sometimes; I catch myself using them) throws around when they don't know what else to call it. A better term to use is "paranormal", or "existing beyond the mundane, regular existence", but that encompasses mages and psionicists. If it's natural on one world, it's natural on any world, no matter how you splice it. Likewise, if it's natural in one form, it's natural in any form.

No, I'm not saying you shouldn't hunt paranormal threats. I'm not saying you shouldn't protect those who can't protect themselves. I'm saying that to discriminate between "of this world" and "not of this world" is no different at all from discriminating between blacks and whites.

Sorry, DarKnyght, but I'm going to have to cancel our end-of-the-month trip, seeing as how I have a number of spirits in my home, including a dragon who chooses to inhabit a sword fairly frequently in order to help me out. I hope you won't mind this cancellation, since I'm just a stupid shaman who can't tell the difference between positive entities and negative entities, anyway.

Yes, I know; you won't go after me in the immediate future or probably at all because I'm doing the "greater good" (which is another term that has no meaning to me), but you've offended me nonetheless, and that's something that's not usually easy to do.

Good night. I need to get some sleep before the shit starts going down tomorrow.

Ron Caliburn · Post by **Ron Caliburn** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:10 am

Cyanide wrote:How does a hunter stray that far from taking down the wicked supernatural to wanting complete sanitization? Other than that, I'm growing weary of this talk of Mr. Clean wanting to spritz the world with bleach...

I would be very happy if taking out all the menaces and monsters in one go were within my grasp.

I would be surprised at any here who weren't.

Quite honestly, I think it's high time we finally clear this planet out of the uninvited and unwanted visitors who prowl the night, feeding on us, haunting our dreams and otherwise prey upon humanity.

This is our world and we have a duty to protect it and our people.

Holister · Post by **Holister** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:31 am

" SIG HAIL! MINE FUHER!"

Hey Ron, I think I hear you daddy calling. :twisted:

Ron Caliburn · Post by **Ron Caliburn** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:36 am

Don't worry Ben, I'll be visiting my father soon.

Tell your Momma I said Hi and told you to leave my family out of things.

Shadowstalker · Post by **Shadowstalker** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:41 am

Holister Stow that shit thank you very much. Ron you said it yourself there"prey upon humanity" that is a major defineition, that I agree with, but there are things out there that don't. That are trying to just get by and live, not out to give humanity a problem. Heck a few of them are out to help humanity if they can?
What do you think about them?

Cyanide · Post by **Cyanide** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:52 am

Exactly. Those that deserve to be sent away should have it done so as quickly as possible. Those that help or don't do anything bad shouldn't be punished though.

DarKnyht · Post by **DarKnyht** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:37 am

KT, I have to disagree with you on the racial statements. That is a complete twisting of my point. All you are doing is dividing one species up and trying to use it as a counter argument. Africans, Orientals, South Americans, Indians, etc. are all still homosapiens no matter how you divide them.

However, that was not the case for the rabbits I mentioned. The rabbits did not exist at all on that continent until humans introduced them to it, and their introduction is responsible for the destruction of multiple native wildlife species. My point was that when things that are not of this world are introduced into our world you also introduce an imbalance to the established global ecosystem. If this imbalance is allowed to continue we will have the same results.

If these things were natural to our world, they would not need someone to bring them here. Nor would they need to slip through the cracks at places of power. They would not need to inhabit and dominate native species or things to have an anchor to our world.

Cyanide · Post by **Cyanide** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:31 am

Who do you think was here before the humans? You think that those paranormal beings didn't exist and visit here even then? There could of been a mage from some other reality visit this dimension when the dinosaurs were still roaming. Your plan stinks because you don't even have a solid definition of the important things, you run off of only what you think you know.

"You need to forget what you know, what you think you know..." - Tyler Durden

DarKnyht · Post by **DarKnyht** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:31 am

Who do you think was here before the humans? You think that those paranormal beings didn't exist and visit here even then? There could of been a mage from some other reality visit this dimension when the dinosaurs were still roaming. Your plan stinks because you don't even have a solid definition of the important things, you run off of only what you think you know.

If they did, show me the evidence of it. All that the scientists are bringing up are so far are fossils of native life. Yes, these things may have visited the planet back then, but the key word is "visit". This is our home planet, and we have an obligation to defend it from the things that see us as food or playthings.

We of this planet have a right to choose our planet's destiny ourselves. If that is destroying ourselves through something like global warming then that is our choice for our planet. If it is turning it into a utopia, then that should also be our choice, not some outsiders. Some would claim that they are a higher authority, I ask what makes them any better qualified than us to choose our planet's path?

I never claimed to have all the answers, nor did I claim to be the final authority on this matter. You ask that I define something that I myself still try to define properly. How far must this go is a question that I do not totally have an answer to. I know that I want the things that prey and use humans for their own benefit to be gone. I know that the ones that would bring those things into our world should be punished. If you fit into those two things, then you should be concerned.

I ask questions in response because I believe there are those who blindly follow what they have been taught. I ask questions regarding the motives of these beings just as I would question the motives behind a human I just met. How do we know that they are not holding us a hand of peace out here while preparing for war back in their own dimension? To use a World War II analogy, I do not wish to be France and England during the start of the war. They gave up so much in the pursuit of peace with Germany that when they finally realized their mistake they were powerless to stop it. I do not want to see that happen on a global scale because then there will be no one to bail humanity out.[/quote]

Greydawn · Post by **Greydawn** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:41 pm

Perhaps you are right about no one being there to help us, humanity, out, but if you go on a genocidal spree against all beings that come here from other realms of existence then you guarantee that.

I know for a fact that there are other beings that take a great interest in humanity and would and do help us survive that which we fight. Would you turn down the ones that come to help saying that they are not welcome here because they were not born here?

Deathblaster · Post by **Deathblaster** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:43 pm

if their ugly enugh yeah.

Crosshair MT · Post by **Crosshair MT** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:14 pm

You know this is the example of human arragance that still stuns me. We have faced things we can not prove exsit because of how they vanish, yet we still think we are the only sentiant life that developed on this planet. I am not a scientist or a expert on anything besides firearms and armor, but I have seen things that are mind numbing. As far as us having the right to destroy everything non human that we find because we can not classsifiy it in a niche of our natural order is stupidity. Where I come from aliens had made contact with us, and most had tech that made earth look like the Amish. I leave the results of man's destroy it because it is not human to you.

We need to be more than just machines that see a paranormal creature and go kill it. If it is not being a menace it may be a champion of good, and if it is that is the one we would encounter because theyu want to help and contact others who do the same thing. I am not saying that we should blindly walk up to a superrnatural and not be ready to fight. Ron is some one who catchs nine kinds of hell for his views on vampires and werebeast, he has repeated shown in his war post that he does observation before he kills his prey. Sorry to put it so coldly Ron, but we are predators and they are prey to us. He has even shown he can give a vampire a chance based on the trust he has in members of this Society. Keep a open mind DarKnyht. or be trapped in a very narrow life.

Cyanide · Post by **Cyanide** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:15 pm

DarKnyht wrote:
Who do you think was here before the humans? You think that those paranormal beings didn't exist and visit here even then? There could of been a mage from some other reality visit this dimension when the dinosaurs were still roaming. Your plan stinks because you don't even have a solid definition of the important things, you run off of only what you think you know.

... Yes, these things may have visited the planet back then, but the key word is "visit". This is our home planet, and we have an obligation to defend it from the things that see us as food or playthings.

... If you fit into those two things, then you should be concerned.

[/quote]

For one, You now simply say that we should defend it against things that see us as food or playthings, yes, that I can agree with. Not those that don't cause any harm except for being here when they could be in their own home dimension, that's like bitching about a tourist cutting in front of you in a subway station, get over it.

And second, I don't know which one of your categories I would fall into besides that I am not "natural" persay, but I can assure you, I hold no concern for my demise, when it comes, it won't slow me down, only speed up my plans.

DarKnyht · Post by **DarKnyht** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:01 pm

This is our home planet, and we have an obligation to defend it from the things that see us as food or playthings.

All this arguing is coming from our differences of opinion on that very point. Simply put, what you include in that group is different than what I include. And it is not so much the food as the playthings side of the argument. The things you are calling good are making use of our planet as a play/battleground as much as the things you call evil. Likewise, they make use of humanity the same way.

Cyanide · Post by **Cyanide** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:08 pm

And we do what to cattle and our cities? I see a point, even if it isn't that big. What you are saying though is that we should basically sanitize about ooooooh 95% of the world's population then. Do you have a higher line to have drawn or do you mean that everything that uses this place as a battleground or a playground should be dealt with? I can understand taking out the possessor that is just playing with its human victims but how about if you see something from another plane that is just enjoying bouncing from one building to another just because it comes from a desolate plane where the land is flat for the most part? Shall we stop and question every single creature just because they are "unnatural"?

I've sat and watched a pair of SuperNats that were just playing with a power plant, nothing big happened, maybe a few light bulbs burned out somewhere, but nothing was ever reported from the power plant's occurences. Then as something else decided to cause them harm, I took care of it instead. That may make me an evil person in some eyes because I let two go and took one down in their defense... Shall I shoot the two dead on the spot next time I see them ruin a night light?

Reintroduction

Supernatural defined?

Agreed on that. Signatures change rapidly.